Fighting in Gaza Strip

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Bagor

So you would have no issues with Iran dropping the big one on Israel given half the chance?

No problems with Sadam and his biological and chemical weapons?

Napalm ok too? Might as well throw in a few suicide bombers for good measure.

I think I would have a problem with any war that was seeking the genocide of another race.

Israel isn't seeking the genocide of the Arabs in their mist or in the surrounding territories. The goal of this campaign is to stop the bombings by killing Hamas and destroying their infrastructure. Israel knows that Hamas will rebuild and start bombing again but, until then the bombs will stop/slow down. Israel is defending herself.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Ignoring the fact that 60 years ago mean jack in what people decide do now.

There are Irish that hate the English for Cromwell's reign back in the 1600's. There are Scots who still are stung by the Act of Union in 1707 (my uncle, a Scottish separatist, being one of them). There are Australian/American/Canadian native peoples still bitter about losing their land back in the 1800's. There are Armenians who hate Turks for the WWI massacres of their people. There are Pakistanis who hate the Indians because of the Kashmir being granted to the latter in 1947.

YOU don't care what happened 60 years ago - but that means less than jack, if possible. Not every culture lives in the eternal present like the majority of we North Americans strive to do.

[tranquill]

Israeli dissident analytic writes that IDF op in Gaza is already stuck, Israelis are bogged down, and basically that's the end of the war: http://samsonblinded.org/news/israel...-momentum-5424

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by jammies

There are Irish that hate the English for Cromwell's reign back in the 1600's. There are Scots who still are stung by the Act of Union in 1707 (my uncle, a Scottish separatist, being one of them). There are Australian/American/Canadian native peoples still bitter about losing their land back in the 1800's. There are Armenians who hate Turks for the WWI massacres of their people. There are Pakistanis who hate the Indians because of the Kashmir being granted to the latter in 1947.

YOU don't care what happened 60 years ago - but that means less than jack, if possible. Not every culture lives in the eternal present like the majority of we North Americans strive to do.

Hey my family was Irish...should I start to hate the English for the potato famine? I mean really I could feel bitter towards quite a few family members now!!! Mind you as an Englishman I could feel bitter about the Yanks chasing us off but then I would have to hate some more family members! Wait! One of my Uncles died when he was captured by the Japs!! I should go and slap my wife in the head and kick my children!! Then again I should be wary since my relative nuked my family's relatives! Someone may get me!!!

Your uncle is either VERY old or just holding onto some historical grievance that really doesn't affect his life at all. Something tells me that your uncle didn't fire off a rocket into England and would never excuse such action at all. It is a very pathetic culture that uses past grievances to excuse any behavior. Hamas has no link to the Palestinian past of 1948 beyond the fact they are a Palestinian group. They are a Iranian fed terrorist group that wiped out their rivals in Gaza.

A very sorry culture that is!

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by flip

Good post.

I totally agree that anyone who tries to defend or blame either side is completely losing sight of their own bias. The ultimate cause/blame of this conflict is so entrenched and convoluted that both sides are to blame and a solution isn't likely to occur without a lot of work and a lot more violence.

Good post? Hardly.

Are you saying that:

statement: Hamas is to blame is biased
but
statement: both sides are to blame is not biased?

If so, I would not call that a good post, I would call that relativism at its best.

Its stunning that people who are not muslim extremists show this kind of understanding for actions of extremist (not to mention that these actions are aimed against them as well), or at very least are willing to "share the blame equally" when extremists blow up busses and cafes and Israel wants to stop that.

I am sure there must be some kind of psychological explanation for such pathological behaviour.

[HOZ]

Here is a very good rundown of the situation by Barry Rubin.

Have a read. Page two has an nice eye opener for people.

[HOZ]

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by HOZ

What does the Israeli - Palestinian history have ANYTHING to do with this? It is a cover for those that are willing to ignore Hamas shelling Israel with 3000 rockets DURING a ceasefire agreement and then launching 200 more when it ended....all the while celebrating the deaths, fear and destruction they created. Ignore that the fact that Israel did not respond until now. Ignoring that fact that Israel is NOT occupying Gaza. Ignoring the fact that Hamas does NOT represent the Palestinians. Ignoring the fact that 60 years ago mean jack in what people decide do now. It is an excuse.

Just sayin...

You're right. History has no bearing whatsoever on present day events.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Well that's a bit unnecessary man. The nice thing about CP from most other message boards is the usual absence of this kind of crap.

How does someone respond to that and further any point? "Why yes, I just got this bomb belt at Sears last weekend, they were on sale"

Argue with logic, not pointless attempts at slams

I agree with you completely....I was out of line. I thought about this prior to typing, and thought that anyone that supports any hate group was fair game and posted.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by jammies

There are Irish that hate the English for Cromwell's reign back in the 1600's. There are Scots who still are stung by the Act of Union in 1707 (my uncle, a Scottish separatist, being one of them). There are Australian/American/Canadian native peoples still bitter about losing their land back in the 1800's. There are Armenians who hate Turks for the WWI massacres of their people. There are Pakistanis who hate the Indians because of the Kashmir being granted to the latter in 1947.

YOU don't care what happened 60 years ago - but that means less than jack, if possible. Not every culture lives in the eternal present like the majority of we North Americans strive to do.

I agree, yet they need to move on. Israel plants trees while Hamas builds bombs. Google earth the region and watch how green some parts of the region are...you will see where the Jews live. And this is for the whole region, not just Israel/Palestine.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I agree with you completely....I was out of line. I thought about this prior to typing, and thought that anyone that supports any hate group was fair game and posted.

In fairness, I re-read Pepper24's post and my response to it. I interpreted Pepper's post as sarcastically pointing out the irony of my own post, in which I suggested people need to educate themselves about the history of the region, and then referred to the wrong year. I suppose his post could be interpreted in a non-sarcastic fashion, and that my post therefore seemed to support the position he appeared to be adopting - a position I assumed he was taking sarcastically.

So there was probably some miscommunication going on there which makes your response more understandable to me.

[CaptainCrunch]

Until the UN starts treating Hamas like a elected government and comes down on them hard for their attacks into Israel, then the UN has no real legitimacy to Israel and the Western Governments.

Unfortunately Hamas is a terrorist outfit wrapped in the blanket on government, yet they're a government that doesn't care if they put their own people into danger. In fact with their dedication to Martyrdom and the ability to use the death of their own people as a PR tool, they're certainly not acting like an elected government.

I even have my doubts that if they ever have an election again, and Hamas loses if they'd willingly give up power.

Its not the Israelies or the UN that have the power to put an end to this conflict, its the civilians in Gaza that have to rise up and get rid of these thugs. They're the ones that are going to have to drive for peace in the region.

I doubt that Isreal is ever going to agree to a cease fire as long as Hamas remains as a viable entity in the Gaza strip. Hamas has shown that they use truces as temporary measures to re-arm, resupply and train the next group of suicide bombers, so why would they trust them to stop.

This might be a war of total annihalation of Hamas for Israel, I doubt that they stop at all.

I find it somewhat ironic though that a organization that values dying for god and for a cause has seen its leadership go into hiding. Shouldn't these leaders be fighting from the front with an AK-47 in one hand and a bomb belt in the other praying for death? Its far easier for them to get young naive children to do the fighting for them.

[redforever]

And now the Israeli have killed the Hamas leader and his family.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7807124.stm

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by redforever

And now the Israeli have killed the Hamas leader and his family.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7807124.stm

May they all enjoy their 73 virgins

[CaptainCrunch]

Can't say that I'm mourning his passing.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Your uncle is either VERY old or just holding onto some historical grievance that really doesn't affect his life at all.

Maybe from yours or my point of view, but that has nothing to do with the fact that to him, the grievance is real. If you're going to go around expecting everyone to act as if history doesn't exist, you are going to be extremely disappointed and continually surprised that people don't act as you would would expect them to. That's why your assertion that the events of 60 years ago don't matter, is plain wrong.

[redforever]

Here are some thoughts from my father in law (now deceased) regarding hot situations that exist around the world, like the topic at hand.

My FIL, MIL and husband immigrated to Canada a few years after the Second World War ended. My FIL had 2 brothers who had come to Canada 15 years prior. Those 2 brothers sponsored my FIL to come over.

My FIL came from Hungary but where he lived was actually on the map of Czechoslovakia, it was a portion of land that had gone back and forth as concessions to various events over the years.

Hitler marched through Czechoslovakia as well as Poland and other countries and my FIL was forced to fight for the Axis.

I guess my FIL had never really talked about the war with his family. One day I asked him about it and he talked about his war experiences in great depth with me..

His unit marched to and from Russia in the dead of winter and many times, the bread that the peasants gave them was the only nourishment they had. 90% of his unit was lost.

Every village feared the time the Germans would come and occupy their town. Household furniture was used for firewood, food supplies were taken for the German soldiers leaving the women, children and elderly left in the villages with little to eat. My MIL and her sister were hid in the root cellar by their father for the entire time the Germans occupied their village, almost 6 months. My MIL was around 18 at the time and if she or other girls and women of that age were not hidden, they were raped.

My FIL never owned a weapon once he came to Canada, outside of a small 22 that he used for perhaps gopher control.

Speaking with him, he told me this.

Until it is your land that has been pillaged, until you have been forced to fight someone else's war, until it is your women who have been raped, until it has been your home that has been bombed to smithereens, until it is your innocent family and friends who have been the victims of yet another bombing, you can have no real understanding of people who do indeed experience those things.

I think sometimes it is very easy for most of us in Canada to point fingers and say, what ruthless people they are. We have been so very very lucky in Canada, not to have a recent war fought at home on our land. Yes, we have sent men and women overseas, but we have not had to fight battles here where other factors come into play. It is very easy for us to say to others, those events are long gone, let them be. But we have not been participants in those events and we have not been the ones who have been hurt so badly and who have lost so much.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

The interesting thing is that the Palestinians were not kicked out, those that are still there are members of Israeli society. So maybe it is a three way tie, christians, Jews and Muslims basically share the land. Now if the terrorists did not exist, none of this would be an issue.

I hope someday an alien lands on earth and tells the world "there is no god and praying to one is useless"

The only way to end these senseless killings year after year is to get rid of the redictulus religious beliefs.

And before the bible-thumpers start on me consider that every year that goes by there's new scientific proof that "your" god likely doesn't exist.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by T@T

I hope someday an alien lands on earth and tells the world "there is no god and praying to one is useless"

The only way to end these senseless killings year after year is to get rid of the redictulus religious beliefs.

And before the bible-thumpers start on me consider that every year that goes by there's new scientific proof that "your" god likely doesn't exist.

And therein lies one of the biggest problems and that is exactly how the problem is perpetuated....... by trying to force others to give up their beliefs and forcing our (your) beliefs on them.

What will happen when the day comes and someone tries to force you to give up what they consider to be your ridiculous belief? They think they are right as much as you do.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

In fairness, I re-read Pepper24's post and my response to it. I interpreted Pepper's post as sarcastically pointing out the irony of my own post, in which I suggested people need to educate themselves about the history of the region, and then referred to the wrong year. I suppose his post could be interpreted in a non-sarcastic fashion, and that my post therefore seemed to support the position he appeared to be adopting - a position I assumed he was taking sarcastically.

So there was probably some miscommunication going on there which makes your response more understandable to me.

Makes sense!