Fighting in Gaza Strip

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Using your theory Calgary should just play their fourth line when playing the Oilers tomorrow. No! In war as in hockey you give them everything you got. You secure the victory. Hamas' aim is to kill Israelites and Israel's aim is to kill Hamas. There's your equality!

This is actually a pretty eloquent encapsulation of a "terrorist" ethic.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

This is actually a pretty eloquent encapsulation of a "terrorist" ethic.

It is how you win. It is the standard of warfare. Any less invites defeat.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by hoz

happy 72 virgins

73?

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

It is how you win. It is the standard of warfare. Any less invites defeat.

Israel doesn't want war. They don't want to "win" they want peace. They want Hamas to go away, not islam.

[transplant99]

What truly amazes me is that the propaganda of the Arabs is seen rightly for what it is - insincere justification of atrocities - and yet the propaganda of the Israelis is not ever questioned

Hamas's STATED goal is to eradicate each and every Jew alive. Period...end of story. That is genocide in its purest form. This is not propoganda, it is in their platform on which they got elected to represent the Palestinians.

Now...if you can find me a clause in the Israeli charter that states ANYTHING similar, I will concede that both sides are equally to blame in said "propoganda" war, but until then they are simply and irrefutably apples and oranges.

And yes, any response Israel makes is legitimate and proportionate....it is hardly on them to stop because the cowards that are hamas hide among the innocents you so eloquently described. They have to target the spots where rocket attacks on THEIR innocents are coming from. Or...I guess the Israeli innocents are much more disposable in your view. Either way there is absolutely nothing more Israel can do than what they are.....protecting themselves.

[Daradon]

I think people gotta remember that Hamas is in more of a no lose situation than the Israelis or their government.

They're fighting just as much for political power within their own people as any code or what they or their people might feel is 'right' or 'justified'. They're fighting for their own advancement, and not the liberation of Palestine or some similar altruistic ideal. (At least not first and foremost.)

If Israel doesn't retaliate, they look stronger, like they are advancing the Palestinian and Muslim cause.

If Israel does retaliate, they garner support through 'the oppression of Israel'.

I used to be pretty sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, but enough is enough already. Hamas knows exactly what they are doing by sending rockets over.

The time for violence is over. I definitely know why that side is pissed the hell off, but they know exactly what they are doing. If it was truly about larger ideals, they wouldn't be doing what they are doing and how they are doing it.

But because they have shown not to care too much about innocents on their side, they have crafted a nice little no-lose scenario for themselves.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Israel doesn't want war. They don't want to "win" they want peace. They want Hamas to go away, not islam.

I agree with you. From a national stand point Israel only wants peace. But, from a military viewpoint the objectives today are to kill the enemy and destroy any infrastructure they are using. From a security standpoint what they are doing makes a lot of sense.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by jammies

Israel is justified no matter what it does. They can go right ahead and kill hundreds of civilians with bombs because that is "unfortunate collateral damage".
Never mind that as recently as 2006 the Israelis tried the same tactics against Hezbollah in Lebanon as they are trying now in the Gaza, and failed miserably
No, the only thing that matters is that Israel goes to war every few years and kills craploads of Arabs, because after 60 years of trying, victory must surely be just around the corner!
What truly amazes me is that the propaganda of the Arabs is seen rightly for what it is - insincere justification of atrocities
The right to self-defence must be proportionate
it's somehow OK for Israel to hold onto occupied land for decades on end, to blow up bridges and buildings that have no military value whatsoever, and to create massive ghettoes for their enemies with no industry, no arable land, no water, and walls all around and dividing them.
they are successful because conditions are so poor that death seems preferable to life.

So you clearly are on the side of Hamas, first you denied it, now you boast it. I will break down your points, which I think are out to lunch:
1 You said Israel kills hundreds of civilians. Israel would not kill any had their enemy not been launching missles and planning attacks from schools, hospitals or houses.
2 You said Israel tried the same tactics against Hezbollah and failed miserably. What tactics? Bombing the enemy that was hiding amongst the innocent? How did this fail? I currently don't see Hezbollah launching targets, and I know Lebanon is more than happy to have Israelis killing their enemy rather than using their own soldiers. Hezbollah is an enemy to the world.
3 You said Israeli goes to war every few years to kill Arabs. While that might seem true based on who Israel's enemies are, I wonder how many Arabs are killed by Arabs each year around the world. But you wouldn't know, since you are too busy worrying about what the Jews are doing.
4 You said that I think all items that support Hamas are insincere justification of atrocities. Actually, I think anyone who supports hamas, such as yourself, is actually sincere. Your hatred is within you. I often wonder why people move across the world to countries like Canada, US and elsewhere, and from nations with the same source of rules that Hamas would rule with if given the chance, then people that do live here somehow support Hamas???
5 You said that The right to self-defence must be proportionate. So you make the rules now? Israel should randomly launch missles into the Gaza strip, eye for an eye style? Israel should blow up buses? Israel should not allow their women to read, write, go to school or have rights? Israel should teach their children to hate? Israel should teach their population to not plant trees, not take care of the earth, not to have rights to prey to whatever they want, since this is all what Hamas does? The only reason there is so much death on the Hamas side is they belong to a cult of death, where they don't care about their earthly life and only care about their afterlife. Jews on the other hand don't get a second life, this one counts so they protect it.
6 You said that it's somehow OK for Israel to hold onto occupied land for decades. Well hate to to burst your bubble, Israel did not walk into wallmart and buy the occupied land, this was the hand they were dealt. And they would walk away from it for a second if they could do it without a bombardment of terrorst attacks. Simple as that.

The bottom line is that Hamas was launching rockets and Israel had enough of them. Why was Hamas launching them? Because they are on the payroll of Iran and wackos like that. This has nothing to do with the Palestinian people. And until people like you condemn the rockets, and not just appear when Israel responds, I will conclude that you are on the side of Hamas, a terrible organization equal with the clan or WW2 era Germans (not sure if I can use certain words in here).

[IgiTang]

Pretty simple.. I work with a Christian Leb and he explained that the Muslims have distorted the FACTS.. this is how it was laid out..

The wall from King Soloman's still stands, only thing left from that era. King Soloman.. A Jew.

Next, the Christian Church across the street from after the introduction to christianity...

Finally, the Mosque... the Muslims came in and stayed.

Who was there first?

The Palestianian people are much like Native Americans, tribes of travelling people with no real Government.. So how are they being kicked out? The Jews were there first... period.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

The Jews were there first... period.

Arguing the "who was where first" point when you live in North America is pretty stupid, man.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by driveway

Arguing the "who was where first" point when you live in North America is pretty stupid, man.

Ummm... just because I live in North America doesnt mean I dont take the time to listen to people who know what they are talking about.

Are you suggesting that the people from that region who now live in North America dont know what they are talking about?

Also, im not expressing an opinion... I am stating actual FACT...

How am I stupid for stating a Fact? (By the way, the earth isnt flat. Oh wait, since I live in North Amercia, I must be stupid for saying that too)

So, you may want to READ an entire post and think about your response before responding to something by taking it out of context and making a critical post about it.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Are you suggesting that the people from that region who now live in North America dont know what they are talking about?

Where your co-worker is from is irrelevant. I was talking about you.

I was suggesting that arguing a certain ethnic group has a better claim to an area of land is kind of a ridiculous argument to make, when the land that your own country occupies was, for all intents and purposes, conquered.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by driveway

Where your co-worker is from is irrelevant. I was talking about you.

I was suggesting that arguing a certain ethnic group has a better claim to an area of land is kind of a ridiculous argument to make, when the land that your own country occupies was, for all intents and purposes, conquered.

Okay, it is much clearer now... you are just looking for an argument.

Who cares that Canada was Conquered? Almost every country on this planet was Conquered at one point or another.
Does this mean that since im not from... lets say, France.. that I cant say the French were there before the Germans?

[driveway]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Who cares that Canada was Conquered? Almost every country on this planet was Conquered at one point or another.

That's exactly it. No one can claim prior-ownership because everyone is an interloper from somewhere (generally). Therefore neither the Jews, nor the Palestinians can argue "I was here first" 'cause they weren't.

Both sides need to let that argument go, because it's a pointless one to make.

[RougeUnderoos]

A trail of smoke is seen after the launch of a rocket from the northern Gaza Strip aimed towards Israel on December 27, 2008. (REUTERS/Baz Ratner)

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/200..._and_gaza.html

(if you are squeamish, heed the warnings about graphic pictures)

[blankall]

Originally Posted by driveway

That's exactly it. No one can claim prior-ownership because everyone is an interloper from somewhere (generally). Therefore neither the Jews, nor the Palestinians can argue "I was here first" 'cause they weren't.

Both sides need to let that argument go, because it's a pointless one to make.

I would agree with this 100%. The reality of the situation is that both Palestinians and Israelis live there now, and the presence of either is not in itself a reason for violence.

Both sides will have to make large concessions to the other.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by driveway

That's exactly it. No one can claim prior-ownership because everyone is an interloper from somewhere (generally). Therefore neither the Jews, nor the Palestinians can argue "I was here first" 'cause they weren't.

Both sides need to let that argument go, because it's a pointless one to make.

I fully agree, the argument should be let go.. it doesnt matter who was there first(the Jews), innocent people are being killed because of some rogue group(Hamas) that is causing all of this. Its not the citizens from either side.

However, this is an ongoing argument and the whole reason that Hamas is starting all of this. They need to be wiped out if they cant come to terms with the fact that they are wrong.

As for our discussion, there was no argument. I was right and stated only fact.. you called me stupid for it.. all it did was made you look stupid.

In a way, I was the Jew and you were the Hamas.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

As for our discussion, there was no argument. I was right and stated only fact.. you called me stupid for it.. all it did was made you look stupid.

The "fact" that you stated is the opinion of someone from the area. That doesn't make it a fact.

I know a guy from Lebanon as well and he blames the Israelis for everything.

Are you suggesting that the people from that region who now live in North America dont know what they are talking about?

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

It is how you win. It is the standard of warfare. Any less invites defeat.

No, war is governed by the Geneva Conventions and the Hague Conventions, which lay down rules by which signatories are obliged to abide. It is also restricted by various UN convenants and international law. Total war is not an option.

Originally Posted by transplant99

And yes, any response Israel makes is legitimate and proportionate....it is hardly on them to stop because the cowards that are hamas hide among the innocents you so eloquently described. They have to target the spots where rocket attacks on THEIR innocents are coming from. Or...I guess the Israeli innocents are much more disposable in your view. Either way there is absolutely nothing more Israel can do than what they are.....protecting themselves.

Really? So if Israel decided that firebombing the entire Gaza Strip and then sending in tanks to kill whoever was left was the thing to do, that response would be "legitimate and proportionate"? Why is that - is Israel like the Pope, entirely infallible?

Further, the idea that Israel can do "absolutely nothing more" to protect themselves is debatable - whether they ever will do so, however, is another matter, for most of what they *could* do would involve repudiating the idea of a "Jewish homeland" and becoming a truly secular state.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

So you clearly are on the side of Hamas, first you denied it, now you boast it.

Your lack of comprehension becomes tiresome. I am against all sides, and for none of them.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

1 You said Israel kills hundreds of civilians. Israel would not kill any had their enemy not been launching missles and planning attacks from schools, hospitals or houses.

That doesn't make the civilians any less dead.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

2 You said Israel tried the same tactics against Hezbollah and failed miserably. What tactics? Bombing the enemy that was hiding amongst the innocent? How did this fail? I currently don't see Hezbollah launching targets, and I know Lebanon is more than happy to have Israelis killing their enemy rather than using their own soldiers. Hezbollah is an enemy to the world.

Do you know anything at all about this conflict other than what you've read in the Watchtower? The Israelis did no better than a tie against Hezbollah in 2006, and even formed a commission to investigate the prosecution of the war due to widespread opinion that it was a strategic defeat.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

3 You said Israeli goes to war every few years to kill Arabs. While that might seem true based on who Israel's enemies are, I wonder how many Arabs are killed by Arabs each year around the world. But you wouldn't know, since you are too busy worrying about what the Jews are doing.

You miss the point that all these wars have left Israel no more secure than they have ever been, because they just perpetuate a cycle. That is the point on which all the "logic" of retaliation founders - it doesn't work.

And I suspect I care quite a bit more about Arabs killing Arabs than you do, as I am not obsessed with Israel as the be-all and end-all of righteous causes.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

4 You said that I think all items that support Hamas are insincere justification of atrocities. Actually, I think anyone who supports hamas, such as yourself, is actually sincere. Your hatred is within you?

No, I said that Hamas is guilty of insincere justification of their atrocities, but since that conflicts with your delusion that I support them, you completely misunderstand what I am saying.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

5 You said that The right to self-defence must be proportionate. So you make the rules now?

No, as I explained earlier, the international community makes the rules. If Israel doesn't like them, they should withdraw from all the conventions and treaties to which they are signatory, instead of hiding behind the US veto at the UN to do as they please.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Israel should randomly launch missles into the Gaza strip, eye for an eye style? Israel should blow up buses? Israel should not allow their women to read, write, go to school or have rights? Israel should teach their children to hate? Israel should teach their population to not plant trees, not take care of the earth, not to have rights to prey to whatever they want, since this is all what Hamas does? The only reason there is so much death on the Hamas side is they belong to a cult of death, where they don't care about their earthly life and only care about their afterlife. Jews on the other hand don't get a second life, this one counts so they protect it.

I entirely agree that Hamas worships death, heck they even explicitly have said as much. However, I fail to see how that has anything to do with what Israel should do - if you sink to the level of an evil enemy, does that not make you evil as well?

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

6 You said that it's somehow OK for Israel to hold onto occupied land for decades. Well hate to to burst your bubble, Israel did not walk into wallmart and buy the occupied land, this was the hand they were dealt. And they would walk away from it for a second if they could do it without a bombardment of terrorst attacks. Simple as that.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. Nobody forced the Israelis to occupy the West Bank, Golan Heights, Gaza Strip, Sinai, or southern Lebanon, and it certainly wasn't "the hand that they were dealt", unless of course you concede that they were the dealers and stacked the cards. As far as them walking away from the remaining occupied areas "no problem", on exactly what do you base this certainty? The fiasco of the settlements being bulldozed and Israeli settlers fighting their own army in the Gaza gives the lie to that ridiculous notion being in any way true.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

The bottom line is that Hamas was launching rockets and Israel had enough of them. Why was Hamas launching them? Because they are on the payroll of Iran and wackos like that. This has nothing to do with the Palestinian people. And until people like you condemn the rockets, and not just appear when Israel responds, I will conclude that you are on the side of Hamas, a terrible organization equal with the clan or WW2 era Germans (not sure if I can use certain words in here).

What is this, the indirect application of Godwin's Law?

Once again, your distressing inability to look at the situation in any way other than appointing champions and villains has limited your understanding of a concept that is really not all that difficult: if you do not understand the history and seminal causes of conflict, you cannot say anything useful or illuminating about it. You clearly don't even have a decent grasp of events that happened not more than 2 years ago, never mind the deeper historical record. Of course, you'll ignore this advice in favour of more ranting and raving about proximate causes and morality, which leads me to my final observation: "It's easier to preach than it is to think."

[flylock shox]

This is a very emotion-charged debate (not just in this thread, but generally) and I think anyone who partakes in it needs to first educate themselves about the complex history of the region, particularly since 1955, and to then detach themselves from their own biases and attempt to understand both the history of the conflict and the perspectives of the various parties involved. If you can do those things I think it's inevitable that, no matter what position you ultimately take, you'll agree that there's no simple practical solution to this conflict.

If anyone is interested in obtaining a good idea of some of the perspectives involved in the middle east, I strongly recommend From Beirut to Jerusalem by Thomas Friedman.

Another book which might be of interest to those interested in a deeper understanding of US-Israeli relations, is the recently released The Israel Lobby by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt.