Fighting in Gaza Strip

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by jammies

In any conflict where the asymmetry of military force denies one side even the faintest hope of victory, the natural outcome is guerrilla warfare or "terrorism" where the weaker side resorts to the only possible means of resistance - covert operations, and operations against civilian targets. It is the same Israeli nation that fulminates against "terrorists" now whose founders were practitioners of terrorism themselves for this very reason when faced with the military supremacy of the British; you would think that this ultimately successful campaign would have taught their leaders that for every terrorist you kill by bombing his base into rubble, you create two more in the ruins.

Leftist 2: The Palestinians have no recourse but to defend themselves, and the makeshift rockets they fire are nothing compared to the world's most advanced warplanes and munitions, which the IDF is using against them.

The Human Rights Watch organization has been unequivocal in condemning the use of Qassam rockets as a direct violation of international humanitarian law and the laws of war. The firing of Qassams and mortars against civilian populations also
constitutes collective punishment
against hundreds of thousands of innocent Israeli men, women and children.

Moreover, the firing of Qassams began not as a response to the siege against Gaza, but as a marathon celebration by armed Islamic fundamentalist groups following Israel's withdrawal of its troops and settlers from the Strip. To purposely add insult to injury, Islamic Jihad and other organizations used the ruins of settlements as launch platforms.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by jammies

Israel has its hardcore haters who try to block any attempt at peace just like the Arabs. It wasn't an Arab who assassinated Israeli leader Yitzak Rabin when it looked like the Oslo Accords might lead to trading (illegally occupied) land for peace. Does the following quote - "You’re dealing with a culture of thieves and robbers. Muhammad, their prophet, was a robber and a killer and a liar. The Arab destroys everything he touches." - sound like the rhetoric of reason? Were the Phalangist massacres during the Lebanese civil war not ultimately the responsibility of the Israelis? Are there not Jewish settlements in the West Bank protected by walls and guns in defiance of international law and UN resolutions?

Even in this current situation, does killing hundreds of people in the Gaza Strip seem like a reasonable response to one Israeli dying from rocket fire? Has repression of occupied territories ever worked before for the Israelis (again, look at the example of Lebanon), and if not, why is Israel trying the same failed policies once more?

In any conflict where the asymmetry of military force denies one side even the faintest hope of victory, the natural outcome is guerrilla warfare or "terrorism" where the weaker side resorts to the only possible means of resistance - covert operations, and operations against civilian targets. It is the same Israeli nation that fulminates against "terrorists" now whose founders were practitioners of terrorism themselves for this very reason when faced with the military supremacy of the British; you would think that this ultimately successful campaign would have taught their leaders that for every terrorist you kill by bombing his base into rubble, you create two more in the ruins.

Once again, someone digs deep, very deep, to figure out a rational way to blame Israel. Yes and Israeli killed Rabin, and that was a terrible event. Jews did not march the streets looting or burning or stoning people in revenge. It was an isolated incident and the guy will spend life in jail, which he is after his court case ended.
How many more quotes can you find? You can walk into a mosque and find countless quotes of a much more evil nature.
And the Jews did not commit the massacre, but a sane and reasonable nation said that they are responsible, since the act took place in their country. How many massacres do you know of in Arabic countries? Does the world care? No, they seem to only care that one took place in Israel, many years ago.
And yes, the settlements exist, it was what Israel thought would be the bargaining chip they could use to trade land for peace. It did not work, hind site is always 20 20 though, isn't it?
And does killing hundreds seem like a legit response? What would your response be, there have been THOUSANDS of rockets fired. The enemy is hiding in a civilian area, at some point they are gonna bite back.
What repression are you talking about? Israel is simply not letting them into their borders, because of bus and cafe bombings. Collective punishment for sure, but Israel incorrectly calculated that the Palestinians would have had enough, and pushed the terrorism out of their society.
And of course you throw in the fact that there were some Israeli terrorists over 50 years ago. This is true, but the Jews were and still are, some of the most important contributers to society. A typical response to validate Hamas is to remind people that Israel too engages in terrorism, yet fail to mention we are talking about something that at some point will have taken place 100 years ago.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Leftist 2: The Palestinians have no recourse but to defend themselves, and the makeshift rockets they fire are nothing compared to the world's most advanced warplanes and munitions, which the IDF is using against them.

The Human Rights Watch organization has been unequivocal in condemning the use of Qassam rockets as a direct violation of international humanitarian law and the laws of war. The firing of Qassams and mortars against civilian populations also
constitutes collective punishment
against hundreds of thousands of innocent Israeli men, women and children.

Moreover, the firing of Qassams began not as a response to the siege against Gaza, but as a marathon celebration by armed Islamic fundamentalist groups following Israel's withdrawal of its troops and settlers from the Strip. To purposely add insult to injury, Islamic Jihad and other organizations used the ruins of settlements as launch platforms.

Haz, great responses. It is amazing to see the responses some people make in order to condemn Israel. It seems they take points straight out of the rhetoric handbook. Do they realize what they are saying? Do they know they are basically siding with an organization that wraps their kids in bombs, have schooling that is worse than anything Keegstra could have done?

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by jammies

It is the same Israeli nation that fulminates against "terrorists" now whose founders were practitioners of terrorism themselves for this very reason when faced with the military supremacy of the British; you would think that this ultimately successful campaign would have taught their leaders that for every terrorist you kill by bombing his base into rubble, you create two more in the ruins.

Not entirely accurate. Israel used terrorism because it was hard if not impossible to pin it on them. They were trying to make it look like Egypt, in a way to turn Britain against it's former colony. The only reason Israel ever got caught is because an Israeli had a make-shift bomb go off early, and he survived long enough to be identified.

Also, if you go deep deep DEEP into history here, Palestinians had their own country. The declared war on Israel the moment it was created with the other Arab countries around Israel. Much like those other Arab countries they got their collected asses handed to them, and in the biggest of ironies, also lost land. The difference between what was Palestine and the other countries is they lost all their land for their blind sighted belligerence.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Not entirely accurate. Israel used terrorism because it was hard if not impossible to pin it on them. They were trying to make it look like Egypt, in a way to turn Britain against it's former colony. The only reason Israel ever got caught is because an Israeli had a make-shift bomb go off early, and he survived long enough to be identified.

Also, if you go deep deep DEEP into history here, Palestinians had their own country. The declared war on Israel the moment it was created with the other Arab countries around Israel. Much like those other Arab countries they got their collected asses handed to them, and in the biggest of ironies, also lost land. The difference between what was Palestine and the other countries is they lost all their land for their blind sighted belligerence.

The Palestinians have never had their own country in the history of humanity. They merely had the opportunity for their own country. After the war in 1949 the Gaza strip became part of Egypt and the West Bank part of Jordan. There were no calls for a Palestinian state until after the 1967 war when those territories were conquered by Israel.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by HOZ

The Human Rights Watch organization has been unequivocal in condemning the use of Qassam rockets as a direct violation of international humanitarian law and the laws of war. The firing of Qassams and mortars against civilian populations also
constitutes collective punishment
against hundreds of thousands of innocent Israeli men, women and children.

That'd be a great point, if I had actually said the rocket attacks were justified. I am not saying that at all, I am saying that the Israelis are NOT the unequivocal "good guys" in the situation, and that sending in airstrikes and troops for the umpteenth time is yet another short-term fix that will rebound upon them in the long run with more violence.

Clearly there are elements of Hamas that want to provoke Israeli response in the hope that it will ignite Arab public opinion in their favour; they send rockets indiscriminately into Israel with the object of forcing the Israelis to do exactly what they are doing.

Does that mean Israel is doing the right thing by reacting as Hamas wants? Are the Israelis fools? No, they are not - but a large constituency within Israel is perfectly happy with escalation and confrontation, and want another Arab-Israeli war no less than Hamas does, and with the added incentive of being almost certain they will win.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Once again, someone digs deep, very deep, to figure out a rational way to blame Israel.

And once again someone thinks that saying the Israelis are not blameless somehow equates to them being ultimately at fault. There is plenty of blame to go around, but what is more important is trying to figure out how the situation can be improved - and demonizing the Arabs is demonstrably not working.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Do they know they are basically siding with an organization that wraps their kids in bombs, have schooling that is worse than anything Keegstra could have done?

Here's an idea - maybe some people aren't on ANYONE'S "side". One of the advantages of living in a country that has no direct stake in the war is that you can look at the issues impartially to see the true causes of conflict without obfuscation by emotion and prejudice. Bluntly, I think that there will be no permanent peace in that region in the lifetime of anyone here; religion and history divide the sides too thoroughly. Perhaps one day there will be an acceptable mediator, such as the EU or the Chinese, that has both the impartiality, military power and patience to work through solutions, but right now the Americans are the true rulers of the region, and their partiality to the Israelis has made it impossible for them to represent peace in any credible form.

[Rahim]

I have been in the area. You haven't. Nuff said. Your just a choir boy.
[
quote=Nage Waza;1578902]How is it like a jail cell? Where do you guys come up with this stuff? The only houses that get bulldozed belong to terrorists. The only reason people become suicide bombers is because of mammoth propaganda and brainwashing. Your points of why it 'seems to make sense' why people become bombers is simply not true. There are also no human shields as you call them, the terrorists plant themselves in civilian areas in order to prevent IDF from attacking.
You are basically trying to rationalize why someone would blow themselves up, from your nice Canadian perspective, but it certainly is not how it works down there. Remember, Jews on a grand scale moved there over 50 years ago, yet teenagers today are blowing themselves up? Hamas handpicks people they think can be brainwashed, and also uses the school system to brainwash children's minds. I hate to say this, but there is some extreme hatred that goes on in much of the Arabic world, much of it aimed at Jews. The average Jew wants the violence to end, as does the average Palestinian, but the terrorists want to terrorize.
I honestly am baffled by people with your point of view, seriously.[/quote]

[Nage Waza]

Jammies, to be honest, if you read your earlier post (4:29 am) you clearly were on an anti Israel rant. You even bring up the Phalangist massacres and pointed an accusing finger at Israel.
If you want to be fair, then be fair. Israel has a right to defend it's borders, and did so recently. Nothing more, nothing less. It targeted the enemy, which hides among civilians. Very unfortunate. But that is the issue at hand. Not bringing up things Israel has done in the past (over 50 years ago).
Otherwise, you looked like a typical Israel basher, seriously.
One last point, you say that the religion divides the two sides? How in any way is the Jewish religion a part of the problem? Islam around the world seems to involved in many issues, so why don't you just say what you mean, or are you trying to throw Jews under the bus? Islamic extremism is the issue, not Judaism. That is unless you can explain what you meant.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Rahim

I have been in the area. You haven't. Nuff said. Your just a choir boy.

Then tell us what you saw! Otherwise more BS.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by jammies

Israel has its hardcore haters who try to block any attempt at peace just like the Arabs.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Jammies, to be honest, if you read your earlier post (4:29 am) you clearly were on an anti Israel rant.

No, you choose to see it as an anti-Israel rant by ignoring the very first sentence I wrote, and especially the bolded part I have emphasized above. Pointing out where Israel has done wrong is not an "anti-Israeli rant", other than in the minds of people who have already made up their minds that Israel is entirely a victim and not a participant in the violence.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

You even bring up the Phalangist massacres and pointed an accusing finger at Israel.

The Israelis supported, supplied and encouraged the Phalangists, and ultimately the massacres happened due to that support; if your bad dog bites, you can't evade the responsibility.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

If you want to be fair, then be fair.

I'll just quote this the next time someone asks me to define irony.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

One last point, you say that the religion divides the two sides? How in any way is the Jewish religion a part of the problem? Islam around the world seems to involved in many issues, so why don't you just say what you mean, or are you trying to throw Jews under the bus? Islamic extremism is the issue, not Judaism. That is unless you can explain what you meant.

I think I'm pretty clear on what I meant - one side is Israeli Jews, the other is Muslim Arabs, and the two have irreconcilable differences. I don't know what fantasyland you are living in where that implies that I'm "throwing Jews under the bus". Frankly you seem unable to comprehend the idea that someone could support neither the Arabs or Israelis, and are desperate to be able to slot opinions into either "peace-loving supporters of the one true democracy of the Middle East" or "anti-Semitic peddlers of hate against the Jews".

One last time - I support NEITHER side and think that BOTH sides engage in unwarranted, unnecessary and inexcusable violence. I also think that trying to understand how the wars go on without understanding the history and causes behind them is ridiculously naive - if you don't think that what happened 60 years ago is important today, then you are never going to have more than a superficial comprehension of a conflict which is little more than the continuation of a struggle begun then.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by blankall

The Palestinians have never had their own country in the history of humanity. They merely had the opportunity for their own country. After the war in 1949 the Gaza strip became part of Egypt and the West Bank part of Jordan. There were no calls for a Palestinian state until after the 1967 war when those territories were conquered by Israel.

Either way, they don't declare war, they get their country. It was blind sighted belligerence on their part.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Islamic extremism is the issue, not Judaism.

No. The issue, ultimately, is economics. Economics is always the issue. It has been the issue at the root of every conflict in history and will always be the issue at the root of every conflict. Religion, nationalism, etc. are just window-dressing.

Lasting peace in the Holy Land will only ever be accomplished when both sides experience relative parity in economic prosperity.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by driveway

No. The issue, ultimately, is economics. Economics is always the issue. It has been the issue at the root of every conflict in history and will always be the issue at the root of every conflict. Religion, nationalism, etc. are just window-dressing.

Lasting peace in the Holy Land will only ever be accomplished when both sides experience relative parity in economic prosperity.

First of all there have been many conflicts driven on ethnicity and idealism.

Secondly, there will never be economic parity between Israelis and Palestinians. One side has more PHDs per capita than any other country in the world. The other side refuses to allow women in the workplace.

Even if the Israelis were to give the Palestinians full economic freedom, what industries would their economies be based on.? What industry in the middle of a desert would support the millions of people who claim Palestinian citzenship? There is no way economic parity will ever exist.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by blankall

First of all there have been many conflicts driven on ethnicity and idealism.

All of those conflicts, upon close examination, will reveal themselves to be based on economic factors. Ethnicity and idealism provide the excuse and rhetoric. Economics provides the motivation. This is always true.

There is no way economic parity will ever exist.

Then there will never be peace.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by driveway

No. The issue, ultimately, is economics. Economics is always the issue. It has been the issue at the root of every conflict in history and will always be the issue at the root of every conflict. Religion, nationalism, etc. are just window-dressing.

The problem with this viewpoint is it doesn't explain how economic disparities exist between countries and regions that DON'T go to war over them. I may want something you have, but whether or not I actually fight you for it depends on much more than economic factors.

To illustrate, try explaining why - using economic arguments only - WWI started in 1914 between France/Britain/Russia and Germany/Austria-Hungry instead of, say, 1898 between France/Russia and Britain/Germany (when in fact the British and French DID almost go to war over African colonies).

In Israel's case, I agree that the relative poverty of the Palestinians compared to the Israelis is a large part of the problem, but that poverty in itself is rooted in cultural and historical reasons that produced that economic inequality from the 2nd Aliyah (1904-1914) onwards, as the relatively rich and well-educated immigrants from Europe and Russia increasingly controlled the land and industry of Palestine.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

One last point, you say that the religion divides the two sides? How in any way is the Jewish religion a part of the problem? Islam around the world seems to involved in many issues, so why don't you just say what you mean, or are you trying to throw Jews under the bus? Islamic extremism is the issue, not Judaism. That is unless you can explain what you meant.

I have no desire to wade waist-deep into this debate, but it should be pointed out that religious extremism and fanaticism exists, and is problematic, on both sides and in every religion.

Neither Islam nor Judaism, per se, are the problem. But if you think that Israel is a moderate country, populated by moderates, you're kidding yourself. There has been a steady flow of moderate and liberal Israelis out of Israel for the past 20 years, and an influx (and domestic growth) of extremist Israelis. Who do you think these folks are who are building settlements, and fighting not only international law and Palestinians in the process, but Israeli army forces trying to remove them? Some of these settlers are about as Israeli as the average Calgarian - they are extremists of various nationalities who see settlement as a religious imperative, and actually chose to move themselves (and their families) into a known warzone.

Religious extremism is rampant in much of the Middle East, and Israel is no exception. The fact that it is a democracy, and the fact that it is a Jewish state, don't change that one iota.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by jammies

That'd be a great point, if I had actually said the rocket attacks were justified. I am not saying that at all, I am saying that the Israelis are NOT the unequivocal "good guys" in the situation, and that sending in airstrikes and troops for the umpteenth time is yet another short-term fix that will rebound upon them in the long run with more violence.
Clearly there are elements of Hamas that want to provoke Israeli response in the hope that it will ignite Arab public opinion in their favour; they send rockets indiscriminately into Israel with the object of forcing the Israelis to do exactly what they are doing.
Does that mean Israel is doing the right thing by reacting as Hamas wants? Are the Israelis fools? No, they are not - but a large constituency within Israel is perfectly happy with escalation and confrontation, and want another Arab-Israeli war no less than Hamas does, and with the added incentive of being almost certain they will win.
And once again someone thinks that saying the Israelis are not blameless somehow equates to them being ultimately at fault. There is plenty of blame to go around, but what is more important is trying to figure out how the situation can be improved - and demonizing the Arabs is demonstrably not working.
Here's an idea - maybe some people aren't on ANYONE'S "side". One of the advantages of living in a country that has no direct stake in the war is that you can look at the issues impartially to see the true causes of conflict without obfuscation by emotion and prejudice. Bluntly, I think that there will be no permanent peace in that region in the lifetime of anyone here; religion and history divide the sides too thoroughly. Perhaps one day there will be an acceptable mediator, such as the EU or the Chinese, that has both the impartiality, military power and patience to work through solutions, but right now the Americans are the true rulers of the region, and their partiality to the Israelis has made it impossible for them to represent peace in any credible form.

Jammies, this does come across as a more reasonable set of points. Your earlier post was clearly aimed at pointing a finger at Israel even if you did not intend it to be.
The airstrikes might be a short term fix, but they have also tried the long term fix and that does not seem to work either.
You mention a large constituency within Israel as wanting an all out war. From what I remember, that number was less then ten percent. The vast majority want peace, but are willing to defend themselves.
I am still not sure where people think religion is a cause of the problem, unless they are specifically referring to Islam.
I agree with you that it is going to be very difficult. However, the problem exists in other parts of the world as well, Muslim extremism is spreading.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

I have no desire to wade waist-deep into this debate, but it should be pointed out that religious extremism and fanaticism exists, and is problematic, on both sides and in every religion.

Neither Islam nor Judaism, per se, are the problem. But if you think that Israel is a moderate country, populated by moderates, you're kidding yourself. There has been a steady flow of moderate and liberal Israelis out of Israel for the past 20 years, and an influx (and domestic growth) of extremist Israelis. Who do you think these folks are who are building settlements, and fighting not only international law and Palestinians in the process, but Israeli army forces trying to remove them? Some of these settlers are about as Israeli as the average Calgarian - they are extremists of various nationalities who see settlement as a religious imperative, and actually chose to move themselves (and their families) into a known warzone.
Religious extremism is rampant in much of the Middle East, and Israel is no exception. The fact that it is a democracy, and the fact that it is a Jewish state, don't change that one iota.

Israeli extremists certainly exist, without a doubt. But they are certainly not the issue. A barrage of rockets is the issue, brainwashing of children is the issue, blowing up buses is the issue. If there was no violence, they would have been a part of a great country. Instead walls are used to keep fanatics out. We can keep finding things that are bad in Israel, but that has nothing to do with a bunch of random terrorist attacks and the terror network that feeds it.
And you made a major point, Israeli soldiers trying to stop the Israeli extremists. This point is one of the most important issues here - Israel is trying to police these wackos. Had Palestinians stopped or at least tried to stop the rocket launchers, then there would be no air strikes.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I am still not sure where people think religion is a cause of the problem, unless they are specifically referring to Islam.

Part of the problem is that some people, on both sides of this conflict, have the strange belief that god has chosen this tiny little sliver of land for them alone, and people that don't believe in the same book or god shouldn't live there, and they should be kicked out or killed.

In other words... religion is a cause of the problem.

[bcb]

To me, the problem is pretty simple:

Consider the following headline quoted from a major news source yesterday:
"Israel Rains Death on Gaza"
The mainstream media, for some reason will go to any length to rationalize provocations on the part of Palestinian extremists, then, predictably, when Israel finally retaliates, news outlets have a field day criticizing the Israeli response as "heavy handed".

Think about it this way: If any country other than Israel had signed a peace agreement with it's neighbor, and that neighbor continually goaded them with small artillery fire, would anybody actually be surprised when said country finally had enough? And more importantly, would the mainstream media be smothering that country with criticism? Unlikely, I say.