have you ever had a dui, or been close?

[redforever]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Then please explain to me what I should have done with my example of the time I drove when I shouldn't have.

- I had two plans. One involved Calgary Transit but I got incorrect info. Plan #2 was to call a taxi.
- I could not call anybody. Anybody I could have called was either also intoxicated or out of town.

I was left with two options. Fall alseep in a snowbank and die for certain in the -20 degree weather, sleep in the car and have many hours to risk getting a DUI, or take my chances on the road.

Fotze had a great idea- use the taxes on booze to pay for initiatives to get dunks off the road. I would even pay more for my beer if I knew it was going to pay for such things.

Nobody is saying it is a perfect solution, nor will it get all the drunks off the streets. But what I am saying is let's have some options available. Not every night of drinking is planned, and certainly not every drinker has the responsibility to plan such a night.

But we all know what our reaction is if somebody in this city now tries to call a cab during a busy period- we all laugh and say "good luck." We all also know that transit in this city doesn't run very late- in Winnipeg I would often take the bus home from the bar after closing time.

You are right- anybody driving should be 100% responsible all the time. But the fact of the matter is many drivers are not- and we as a society take measures to make sure the irresponsible people don't harm themselves or others. We install cable fences between the two directions on Deerfoot to save people from those who fall asleep behind the wheel. We built a boardwalk on the top of Sulphur Mountain in Banff so that people wouldn't fall off. There are "Don't jump over handrail" signs on bridges. There are some bridges with netting or chainlink fences to keep people from throwing stuff off bridges. The list goes on.

"Don't drink and drive" is a good message. However a better message would be "Don't drink and drive- and here are your realistic options:"

Understanding the concept of "DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE" does not require a degree in quantum physics. It is just such a damned simple concept.

You ask me what you should have done? You know what, if it is that damned hard to drink and make arrangements for after the fact, then drink at home or don't drink. You say you could not get any of your buddies to take you home, they were in the same shape as you. So tell me, how did they get home? They all drive home while drunk as well?

Having programs to get people home which add to the taxpayer's expense is neither logical nor fair. First of all, except in very big communities, it is just not feasible to say, add more buses, add more taxis. There are bars in just about every community across Canada, no matter if a big city like Calgary, or a small town in rural Saskatchewan where I grew up, with a population of 800. You really think it is feasible to put in transit of any kind in rural Canada? And don't try and tell me rural folks don't drink.

No matter how many educational programs are out there and there are good ones, no matter how many public advertisements have been aired, there are still many who don't make plans for getting home after they have been drinking, who ignore the law, and who still drink and drive. Plain and simple, they are selfish, thinking only about their pleasure and not about the consequences.

Like I said before, enough is enough, time for the offenders to start paying the piper. And the step plans that CC outlined before would be a refreshing start.

[4X4]

I've broken the rules more than once, and obviously I'm not proud of it. Never gotten a DUI, but I've gotten the 24 hour suspension twice. Uncool, I know.
But I wanna wade into this thread to say that this city NEEDS more taxis. It is complete bullcrap how hard it is to get a cab on any given friday or saturday night.

I've asked a few cabbies their opinions on the city issuing more taxi licenses and the general consensus is that that would take food off their table. So I have alot of sympathy for that. But how about some creative solutions? How about part time licenses that are only allowed to work during peak hours? I know a few people, like my mom or my brother, that would easily forfeit a night on the town to make some extra cash once in awhile.
I don't know why it has to be so black and white. Sure it's easy to say "plan ahead" "don't bring your car if you're going to drink" "assign a designated driver"... Well, sure. That's like saying "wear a condom" "take the pill". Stuff happens in life. Not everything is so easy to plan. Sometimes you just plan on going to a place for a couple of hours and then you meet someone there and you end up breaking rules from both column A and column B.
Sometimes you plan on staying at the tplace you're going but the situation turns on you.

All I'm saying is that all the planning in the world will not completely eliminate drinking and driving. So how about some solutions for after the drinks are consumed? Again, taxi service in this city on any given friday, saturday, holiday, party night is beyond pathetic. Forget about the cost. I'd gladly pay $30, $40, $50 if I could have a taxi within an hour of wanting one. 3, 4, 5 hours is friggin ridiculous. Even if it were a bus I was waiting for, I'd gladly take the bus over driving my truck if I knew it would be around within an hour or so.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by redforever

You ask me what you should have done? You know what, if it is that damned hard to drink and make arrangements for after the fact, then drink at home or don't drink. You say you could not get any of your buddies to take you home, they were in the same shape as you. So tell me, how did they get home? They all drive home while drunk as well?

Having programs to get people home which add to the taxpayer's expense is neither logical nor fair. First of all, except in very big communities, it is just not feasible to say, add more buses, add more taxis. There are bars in just about every community across Canada, no matter if a big city like Calgary, or a small town in rural Saskatchewan where I grew up, with a population of 800. You really think it is feasible to put in transit of any kind in rural Canada? And don't try and tell me rural folks don't drink.

Now you are just being arguementative.

First point- some people walked home. Some car pooled, and I'm sure some drove drunk. But that isn't what my point was. My point was what could I have done. Yes, I could live the rest of my life never leaving my house. But that isn't a reasonable solution.

Let's get back to the problem. People are driving drunk. Where are they driving drunk? Home from bars and parties. What can we do about it? That's where I'm getting at.

As for your arguement about the towns of 800 people- as I said let's deal with the solvable problem. 2/3 of Albertans live in cities of over 1 million people. So because the one solution doesn't work for everybody- we should abandon it? And in your town of 800 people- I can't see many places not being walking distance home.

You are right that "don't drink and drive" is a simple concept. However people still do it. I and a few others here are proposing solutions. Some of them may work, some may not. Like the breathalizer-starter idea; at least that person had an option that we could explore.

I would also like to hear how putting more taxis on our streets would cost taxpayers money. Or using taxes from alcohol sales to subsidize transit would cost taxpayers money.

4x4- I've heard the arguement about it taking money off their tables. I guess I would say that the public interest in having more taxis available out weighs the fact that their industry has been a bit of a monopoly for so long. The number of taxis has not gone up proportionally to Calgary's population. 1 year ago we had as many cab licenses as we did when we were 700,000 people. Then they added less than 10% more licenses- so now we have cabs for 770,000 people.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

If it's longer then 6 months, give it as long as you think we'll need. 2 years? 5 years?

If we can figure out a way to make these things cheap (assuming of course they are in fact expensive in the first place), I think it would be a great solution.

I just don't see any way that it would be cheap or any way that it wouldn't take forever to accomplish.

The price and effort required would be absolutely insane.

Good idea in theory bu t totally impossible in the real world.

What happens if your engine malfunctions? What happens if your tires malfunction, or your brakes, or your power steering........ try to think of it as just another part to the car.

These things are all necessary for the car to actually run. The breathalyzer is an extra part that would use new technology and for most people is an added part that really shouldn't be there anyways.

A lot easier to deal with a engine breaking down because you failed to maintain it or own a '76 Gremlin than it is to be stuck in -40 weather because Johnny Drunk can't stop driving after hitting up the peelers and you just want to get home but the breathalyzer says you have an Blood Alchol level of 2.9.

Don't like this argument. It's not guilty until proven innocent, it's about prevention. Why do people wear condoms? Or seatbelts? It's called safety, not 'guilty until proven innocent'.

People aren't forced to wear condoms when having sex, people aren't forced to wear seatbelts to start their car. Everyone who has sex is at risk without a condom, everyone without a seatbelt who drives is at risk, a minority (small minority really) are at/a risk without a breathalyzer. The amount of times that a car is operated by a drunk person in NA has to be in the .000000000000001% (or less) range. We really need to force people to have this device in their cars for that amount of risk?

People who are sober don't need to use a breathalyzer, it isn't preventing anything in those cases.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by redforever

Like I said before, enough is enough, time for the offenders to start paying the piper. And the step plans that CC outlined before would be a refreshing start.

And you see this as more important then preventative measures?

I just don't get the logic of the "other side" here (since this debate is a bit polar). I don't see why the "other side" see's it as more important to punish rather then prevent. Throw millions and billions of dollars at prosecuting them and do whatever it takes, but don't pay a fraction of the price to mitigate the one of the largest excuses out there.

To me, preventing accident and saving lives is more important then taking measures after an incident has happened. It puzzles me, really.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by ken0042

4x4- I've heard the arguement about it taking money off their tables. I guess I would say that the public interest in having more taxis available out weighs the fact that their industry has been a bit of a monopoly for so long. The number of taxis has not gone up proportionally to Calgary's population. 1 year ago we had as many cab licenses as we did when we were 700,000 people. Then they added less than 10% more licenses- so now we have cabs for 770,000 people.

Yup. And it shows. But hey, if they're honestly concerned about the income of Calgary's taxi operators and are also concerned about the safety of the public and genuinely want drunk drivers off the streets (or at least reduced), I think my idea of part time licenses is a good one. It's pretty obvious that there are not enough taxis available on these peak times. And if that's because every single one is in action during those times, then more licenses need to be issued. Plain and simple. And if not all taxis are in action during those times, then part time licenses can supplement the full time guys that do the day shifts.

The taxi situation in this city is fricken pathetic. And what that tells me is that the city doesn't honestly care about drinking and driving as much as they'd have you believe.

[moon]

Originally Posted by redforever

Like I said before, enough is enough, time for the offenders to start paying the piper. And the step plans that CC outlined before would be a refreshing start.

That's wonderful and all but it does very little, if anything, to stop people from drinking and driving.

Personally, I support upping the punishment, but some people on here are more concerned with stopping DUI's from happening rather then getting revenge on those that have already committed the act.

[CaptainCrunch]

To me its a voluntary crime. Therefore the punishment for it has to be harsh and you have to make examples out of these people.

The prevention concept obviously isn't simple minded enough or people are idiots. We see programs for volunteers to do the driving, we see ads in print and on T.V. and the newspapers, we see public service messages time and time again.

Yes its nice to say that there are not enough cabs or enough buses, however I don't have much sympathy for that excuse. You can pre-book a cab, you can arrange with friends and family members. The person who went to the bar with a bunch of friends and they couldn't be bothered to have someone volunteer as a designated driver, well then you and your friends are being selfish.

How stupid do people have to be? I ask this honestly because we're exposed to education on this every single day. Drinking and driving is a selfish and voluntary crime, and there's nobody out there that doesn't know what it leads to unless they're completely ######ed. So obviously we're not being hard enough on these criminals, and they are criminals, therefore the ante needs to be upped.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Yes its nice to say that there are not enough cabs or enough buses, however I don't have much sympathy for that excuse.

So to prevent accidents and deaths is to sympathize?

I honestly don't know how you come to these conclusions sometimes.

Lots of talk, very little result is what I see from the "make an example" out of them... if there is any result to it at all.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Yes its nice to say that there are not enough cabs or enough buses, however I don't have much sympathy for that excuse. You can pre-book a cab, you can arrange with friends and family members. The person who went to the bar with a bunch of friends and they couldn't be bothered to have someone volunteer as a designated driver, well then you and your friends are being selfish.

Right. Well, here in good old capitalist Alberta, it absolutely mystifies me as to how and why there's this taxi-cab dictatorship. If I want to spend my money on a service, why can't I? Call me selfish, but I call it spontaneous. Pre-book a cab? Yeah, right. I dare you to try that on a saturday. They'll laugh you right off the phone if you ask for even a window, let alone a certain time.
Try it with any driving service. Same thing. You call them at 6pm and tell them you'd like one at midnight and they'll show up at 10pm or 2am or whatever time works for them. Which is fine. Because they can't plan their schedule when random people are calling in at random times.

I mean, you make it sound like you've never found yourself in circumstances that change. You've never gone out for what was supposed to be a drink or two, and then ran into an old friend and decided to light it up, figuring that you'd "just get a cab", only to find out that you're going to be standing outside of the closed bar for an hour or two waiting for a cab. Or gone to a friend's place in any area not considered downtown, again, figuring that you'd catch a cab, only to end up waiting for 2 or 3 or 4 hours.

I agree, Captain, that the punishments lack severity. But then again, I figure that for pretty much ALL crimes in Canada. Since this is a very easily preventable crime, I don't understand why some of those mechanisms are not put in place. I'm starting to wonder if there's a racket involved in the taxi industry. Is it owned by the bikers or something? WTF?

[Phanuthier]

^ I totally gave up on cabs along time ago. My options are:

- go to a bar close by (nice when I lived in Edmonton on Whyte Ave and in San Jose downtown, ty in Calgary)

- leaving a bar/club at midnight to catch the train, happens way too often and its pathetic

- have a DD (not as fun, sometimes harder to coordinate)

- not go to the bar at all

Lack of cabs have never caused me to DD, but I can see how it would for many and as this thread has proved, better transportation options does fix the problem.

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

To me its a voluntary crime. Therefore the punishment for it has to be harsh and you have to make examples out of these people.

Aren't all crimes voluntary? Either this went way over my head or I'm totally missing your point.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

So to prevent accidents and deaths is to sympathize?

I honestly don't know how you come to these conclusions sometimes.

Lots of talk, very little result is what I see from the "make an example" out of them... if there is any result to it at all.

I'm all for preventing accidents, don't paint me as the bad guy here. I know that there's a shortage of cabs, so I don't drink and drive people home. Or if I'm going to drink, we have someone else dd, or we pre arrange a cab. Or I have family members that I can call because they're more then willing to keep me from killing someone, or I have friends that are willing to pick me up if they're not coming because I'll do the same for them.

I said before, I have no problems with increasing taxi licenses, however I don't think that its going to make a huge difference especially with the habitual drinking and driving crowd, I have no problem increasing transit as long as it doesn't impact taxation.

But don't tell me that there aren't avenues that you can follow.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by jar_e

Aren't all crimes voluntary? Either this went way over my head or I'm totally missing your point.

Yup pretty much, thats why I believe what I believe. However I think drinking and driving is also an incredibly selfish and greedy crime.

Thats why I believe in making examples out of these people.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

^ I totally gave up on cabs along time ago. My options are:

- go to a bar close by (nice when I lived in Edmonton on Whyte Ave and in San Jose downtown, ty in Calgary)

- leaving a bar/club at midnight to catch the train, happens way too often and its pathetic

- have a DD (not as fun, sometimes harder to coordinate)

- not go to the bar at all

Lack of cabs have never caused me to DD, but I can see how it would for many and as this thread has proved, better transportation options does fix the problem.

Bang on, Phanutier.

Half the reason why I'm a decided downtowner... I live in Bankview and can walk to 17th, where me and the gang tend to hang out.

DDs? Yeah, I've got one or two friends that don't drink, or will volunteer to be the DD. What usually happens there is that that person will not be having a very good time and eventually he gets relieved of duty and the rest of us decide to cab it.

Not go to the bar at all? Or in my case, tonight, skip a house party. Because it's in Evergreen. No way in hell I'll get a cab from Evergreen tonight, so I guess I'm going to stay home and whine about how pathetic the cab sitch is in this city.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

So to prevent accidents and deaths is to sympathize?

I honestly don't know how you come to these conclusions sometimes.

Lots of talk, very little result is what I see from the "make an example" out of them... if there is any result to it at all.

Wow, totally trying to paint me as some evil ogre, thanks a lot.

Bottom line, I don't have sympathy nor believe anyone that makes an excuse for drinking and driving. I have an incredible amount of sympathy for people who's lives are ruined or ended by these idiots.

I see very little results especially when it comes to habitual offenders in the current system. I'm disgusted at the driver who received an 800 dollar fine for killing a girl recently.

I admit it, I'm jaded, the current system of going light on people when it comes to crime doesn't work. At some point we have to look at public safety by removing these people from the public or by taking away their weapons (cars and licenses)

[Calgaryborn]

I don't think the problem is being addressed. I had an old friend back in the day who I grew up with. I hadn't seen him in a couple of years so we decided to catch up with a couple of beers. Towards the end of the evening we decided to hop from one establishment to the other. They were in walking distance. We walk outside to where he was parked so he can grab his lighter and my friend notices a stack of trays full of draught glasses. He proceeds to grab a tray and is fumbling with his keys to get his trunk open. I'm standing there bewildered at first and then laughing at his bravo. The waitress comes out and asks what he thinks he is doing. he puts them back still laughing and we both go staggering down the street. My old friend was never known as a thief and if I had been sober I certainly wouldn't had stood there laughing at him attempting to commit a crime. Alcohol clouded our judgement. I've known others who get violent when they drink or think they are tougher than they obviously are. People wake up in bed with partners that they would never have considered bedding if they were sober. Others drive drunk. The point is some people make very poor decisions when they have drunk a few. If the law wishes to stop their illegal behaviour it needs to hit the source: Their drinking. Prohibit a drunk driver from drinking for one year. It is a lot easier to monitor than their driving. Like probation they can expect random and regular testing. We already have the apparatus to do the testing at every police station. Failure o take a test or being found with any alcohol in your system automatically sends you directly to jail.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

^ I totally gave up on cabs along time ago. My options are:

- go to a bar close by (nice when I lived in Edmonton on Whyte Ave and in San Jose downtown, ty in Calgary)

- leaving a bar/club at midnight to catch the train, happens way too often and its pathetic

- have a DD (not as fun, sometimes harder to coordinate)

- not go to the bar at all

Lack of cabs have never caused me to DD, but I can see how it would for many and as this thread has proved, better transportation options does fix the problem.

Yeah right, give anybody enough options and they just won't do the crime. And give them enough options and education and they will see the error of their ways and turn a new leaf. Like, I am sure all those poor sots need is a bit more coddling.... I mean, let's just stroke their ego a bit, they will come around. What a crock..... just more of that gobbledeegooop people get fed and actually end up believing.

There are already more than enough options and programs. The problem is, the drinkers don't like the options. They don't want the hassle of actually preplanning and they want the options customized to suit their drinking preferences... so if they choose to stay out until 4 in the morning drinking..... well then there bloody well be public transportation available at that hour to take them home.

And poor baby, actually have to be a DD and not have fun. I am sure there must be some self help group you can join to help you get over the disappointment of going out with the guys and having to stay sober.

Wow, even worse yet, you sometimes have to leave at midnight to catch the public transportation that is already available at that hour. Yup, a true sacrifice on your part.

I can't even imagine how terrible it must be for you if sometimes you actually have to stay home and miss out on some drinking fun with your buddies.

Oh and by the way, when you start planning more options for the drunk drivers, please include a tuck in service and a nite time story.... you know, so they can get a decent night's sleep and all that and wake up feeling all warm and fuzzy.

[CMPunk]

Well this model of breathalyzers is $189.95:
http://www.personalalcoholtester.com/AL7000.php

And this company rents there model for $2 a day
http://www.intoxalock.com/

I'd be pissed if the government supported mandatory installation of either of these. Just because you're too stupid to get a DD, cab or to not drink, doesn't mean you should punish me for being smarter.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Now you are just being arguementative.

First point- some people walked home. Some car pooled, and I'm sure some drove drunk. But that isn't what my point was. My point was what could I have done. Yes, I could live the rest of my life never leaving my house. But that isn't a reasonable solution.

Let's get back to the problem. People are driving drunk. Where are they driving drunk? Home from bars and parties. What can we do about it? That's where I'm getting at.

As for your arguement about the towns of 800 people- as I said let's deal with the solvable problem. 2/3 of Albertans live in cities of over 1 million people. So because the one solution doesn't work for everybody- we should abandon it? And in your town of 800 people- I can't see many places not being walking distance home.

You are right that "don't drink and drive" is a simple concept. However people still do it. I and a few others here are proposing solutions. Some of them may work, some may not. Like the breathalizer-starter idea; at least that person had an option that we could explore.

So why didn't you walk home?

And where have you been all of your life? Have you ever been in a rural community? My father's farm was 14 miles from town. You think that is within walking distance? If so, I hope you can answer my first question to you, why didn't you walk home?

Drinking and driving is a problem that is prevalent in all of society. Everyone should learn how to drink responsibly, no matter where they live or grow up.