Fighting in Gaza Strip

[driveway]

Responding to rocket-attacks, Israeli security forces have launched what is expected to be a week-long operation involving air-strikes and helicopter attacks on "terrorist infrastructure" in the Gaza strip.

At least 205 people are dead in Gaza, making it the single bloodiest day in the 60-year history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

News links:

Globe and Mail

Israeli warplanes and helicopters pounded the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip on Saturday, killing at least 205 people in the bloodiest one-day death toll in 60 years of conflict with the Palestinians. Militants in the Gaza Strip, who have launched dozens of rocket attacks against Israel since a truce expired just over a week ago, fired more salvoes that killed one Israeli man and wounded several others.

CNN

A statement from the IDF said Israeli aircraft were attacking "a series of Hamas targets and infrastructure facilities," including headquarters, training camps and weaponry storage warehouses.

BBC

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice accused Hamas of having triggered the new bout of violence.
"The United States strongly condemns the repeated rocket and mortar attacks against Israel and holds Hamas responsible for breaking the ceasefire and for the renewal of violence in Gaza," she said.

[CaptainCrunch]

There will never be peace as long as Hamas and the other terrorist groups are capable of running rocket and mortar attacks and keeping a thumb on the innocents in the Gaza strip.

These "people" have no problem putting their own citizens directly in the line of fire as long as it furthers their own cause.

Like I mentioned in another thread, it looks like Egypt who has tried very hard to broker a deal is going to wash their hands of this thing due to Hamas' refusal to get on board with the two state plan.

[PIMking]

Fighting in the middle east? No way! Never!

I am not agianst the isrealies but how would you feel if your country was just taken over by people and you had nothing to say for it?

really what happend if some native tribe from your part of canada had land just given to them by another country and that wasnt your country anymore? would you fight for it? I would. I understand that was the jewish homeland but they just moved in kicked out the palastinians (sp) and you wouldnt think there would be fighting?

One of two things that need to happen. Treaty which will never happen or if it does peace wont last long.

or the Isrealies need to eliminate the enemy. massive military campaign and get rid of them for good.

its a bad situation. and I cant belive that I even think about supporting the damn terrorists.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by PIMking

Fighting in the middle east? No way! Never!

I am not agianst the isrealies but how would you feel if your country was just taken over by people and you had nothing to say for it?

really what happend if some native tribe from your part of canada had land just given to them by another country and that wasnt your country anymore? would you fight for it? I would. I understand that was the jewish homeland but they just moved in kicked out the palastinians (sp) and you wouldnt think there would be fighting?

One of two things that need to happen. Treaty which will never happen or if it does peace wont last long.

or the Isrealies need to eliminate the enemy. massive military campaign and get rid of them for good.

its a bad situation. and I cant belive that I even think about supporting the damn terrorists.

I can respond to this point by point:

Since when did their country get taken over? Absolutely the Brits kinda messed things up, but to be honest, it improved things. So sure, it would suck to be taken over as you put it, but the group (Jews) that took it over absolutely took a desert and turned it into schools, hospitals, human rights, etc. There was a small exodus of people at one point, but they were not chased out, terrorized out or anything. I think there was a battle in a town or two and people did leave, but those that stayed kept their homes, jobs etc. The local population that did leave left because they were getting out of the way of a massive multination Arab invasion. Israel did not let them back in. The majority of those that are stuck in the territories? Many are the result of civil war in surrounding nations. Israel seems like a good place to go, so here we are.

You claim the Palestinians were kicked out? That is a massive lie, but I won't call you a liar - the loonies that seem to side with Hamas validate have invented a false history of the region and I realize many people are confused about the facts. Israel did not become a nation and start kicking people out (like I said already, it happened in a few localized scenarios).

Israel wants an end to violence, but will not and won't ever not respond to a barrage of rockets.

The issue of Palestinians fighting back is ridiculous, Israel is fighting a terrorist group, not the population itself. If you want to discuss this, keep that aspect in mind. Hamas is not representing the people, they have one mandate, kill Jews period. If the IDF can get rid of Hamas, then they can work with the Palestinian people.

I would also like to bring up that Arabs that live in Israel have more rights and freedoms than they do in whatever country they might have come from. The battle we are witnessing is one where dictators use Israel as a scapegoat for all their local problems, why the citizens are so poor and their dictator is so rich - blame Israel. Their taught from a very young age that the jews are terrible people. Do you think a Jew lives in Iran or Iraq or other similar countries? Not a chance, they were kicked out or killed years ago.

I cannot understand how someone in Canada can support a terrorist group (like you said you might). Let's say Jews left Israel - the first thing that would happen is the schools, hospitals and several thousand years of human history would be destroyed - just like pretty much every other Muslim nation. Then the crops and technology would be destroyed. And the citizens who built up the nation that are responsible for many advances to humanity would be gone, and you here in Canada would support that? Makes no sense to me. Rather pathetic actually.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I can respond to this point by point:

Since when did their country get taken over? Absolutely the Brits kinda messed things up, but to be honest, it improved things. So sure, it would suck to be taken over as you put it, but the group (Jews) that took it over absolutely took a desert and turned it into schools, hospitals, human rights, etc. There was a small exodus of people at one point, but they were not chased out, terrorized out or anything. I think there was a battle in a town or two and people did leave, but those that stayed kept their homes, jobs etc. The local population that did leave left because they were getting out of the way of a massive multination Arab invasion. Israel did not let them back in. The majority of those that are stuck in the territories? Many are the result of civil war in surrounding nations. Israel seems like a good place to go, so here we are.

You claim the Palestinians were kicked out? That is a massive lie, but I won't call you a liar - the loonies that seem to side with Hamas validate have invented a false history of the region and I realize many people are confused about the facts. Israel did not become a nation and start kicking people out (like I said already, it happened in a few localized scenarios).

Israel wants an end to violence, but will not and won't ever not respond to a barrage of rockets.

The issue of Palestinians fighting back is ridiculous, Israel is fighting a terrorist group, not the population itself. If you want to discuss this, keep that aspect in mind. Hamas is not representing the people, they have one mandate, kill Jews period. If the IDF can get rid of Hamas, then they can work with the Palestinian people.

I would also like to bring up that Arabs that live in Israel have more rights and freedoms than they do in whatever country they might have come from. The battle we are witnessing is one where dictators use Israel as a scapegoat for all their local problems, why the citizens are so poor and their dictator is so rich - blame Israel. Their taught from a very young age that the jews are terrible people. Do you think a Jew lives in Iran or Iraq or other similar countries? Not a chance, they were kicked out or killed years ago.

I cannot understand how someone in Canada can support a terrorist group (like you said you might). Let's say Jews left Israel - the first thing that would happen is the schools, hospitals and several thousand years of human history would be destroyed - just like pretty much every other Muslim nation. Then the crops and technology would be destroyed. And the citizens who built up the nation that are responsible for many advances to humanity would be gone, and you here in Canada would support that? Makes no sense to me. Rather pathetic actually.

I added "thanks" because I've never seen this issue put together so clearly for me, so "thanks". To sum up your post...

1. Israelis good, Palestinians lived in dirt, were asked politely to leave
2. Palestinians and Muslims bad, stuck in stone age.

I didn't know it was so simple.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by PIMking

its a bad situation. and I cant belive that I even think about supporting the damn terrorists.

I'm with you there. All in all, its a fricken mess over there. I don't agree with either side, it takes 2 to tango here - its not just Hamas/Palestein, and its not just Isreal. I think to get over the violence on both sides, it will take recognition from both sides that both sides need to change what they're doing and come to a peaceful resolve. Hopefully, that way, both sides can get on the same page and come to a long term, peaceful resolve. Until then, its gonna be more and more violence.

(For the record, I don't support either side.)

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I added "thanks" because I've never seen this issue put together so clearly for me, so "thanks". To sum up your post...

1. Israelis good, Palestinians lived in dirt, were asked politely to leave
2. Palestinians and Muslims bad, stuck in stone age.

I didn't know it was so simple.

The fact is, no matter what Israel did, it is not as bad as what goes on in so many other countries. Did you make a post about those countries, or only about Israel? Why is that? How come globally it seems to work that way? Israel just got attacked, Israel responds and you post? Did you post when the attacks happened in India? Palestinians do not live in dirt (that is a lie) and they were not asked to leave (another lie).
Palestinians are not bad, but they are under control of a very bad group, who are in fact stuck in the stone age.

It actually is kinda simple. If Hamas was here in Calgary, it would be the same story.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I'm with you there. All in all, its a fricken mess over there. I don't agree with either side, it takes 2 to tango here - its not just Hamas/Palestein, and its not just Isreal. I think to get over the violence on both sides, it will take recognition from both sides that both sides need to change what they're doing and come to a peaceful resolve. Hopefully, that way, both sides can get on the same page and come to a long term, peaceful resolve. Until then, its gonna be more and more violence.

(For the record, I don't support either side.)

I agree in that I think both sides are doing some pretty awful things. from the israeli side I think continued expansion of certain settlements needs to end immediately. Yes places like Hebron have had historic and uninterrupted Jewish communities, but sacrificing that territory is just something that needs to be done.

As for the Gaza, I would consider Hamas mroe in the wrong here because Israel did withdraw their settlements from the Gaza strip. All of them.

As reward for this they were rewarded with a massive terrorist campaign. the very land they had withdrawn from was now being used to launch rocket attacks against them.

You can argue right or wrong until you're blue in the face, but what kind of encouragement does it give the israeli's to withdraw out of the occupied territies if when they do those very same territories are used as launch pads for terrorist attacks.

At the end of the day the Israeli government still owes security to its citizens and will act in that regard.

[Phanuthier]

^ You summed up what I wanted to say alot more eligently, so I'll just say thats my stance.

[GreenLantern]

.dfdfdfd...

WHERE ARE YOU IRONMAN!!!!!111!!one!111eleven11

[Rahim]

Your so right, Palestine is like one big jail cell that was created by Jews. I'm not anti Jew but if someone bulldozed my house and killed my parents ,I would join Hamas. Its human nature for revenge specially if someone kills or parents hence why there are so many suicde bombers in Palestine or Human Shields.

Originally Posted by PIMking

Fighting in the middle east? No way! Never!

I am not agianst the isrealies but how would you feel if your country was just taken over by people and you had nothing to say for it?

really what happend if some native tribe from your part of canada had land just given to them by another country and that wasnt your country anymore? would you fight for it? I would. I understand that was the jewish homeland but they just moved in kicked out the palastinians (sp) and you wouldnt think there would be fighting?

One of two things that need to happen. Treaty which will never happen or if it does peace wont last long.

or the Isrealies need to eliminate the enemy. massive military campaign and get rid of them for good.

its a bad situation. and I cant belive that I even think about supporting the damn terrorists.

[Fire]

Why don't they just have a full fledged winner-takes-all war, preferably with no outside interference (yeah pipe dream I know). Makes more sense then having these little skirmishes all the time.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Rahim

Your so right, Palestine is like one big jail cell that was created by Jews. I'm not anti Jew but if someone bulldozed my house and killed my parents ,I would join Hamas. Its human nature for revenge specially if someone kills or parents hence why there are so many suicde bombers in Palestine or Human Shields.

How is it like a jail cell? Where do you guys come up with this stuff? The only houses that get bulldozed belong to terrorists. The only reason people become suicide bombers is because of mammoth propaganda and brainwashing. Your points of why it 'seems to make sense' why people become bombers is simply not true. There are also no human shields as you call them, the terrorists plant themselves in civilian areas in order to prevent IDF from attacking.
You are basically trying to rationalize why someone would blow themselves up, from your nice Canadian perspective, but it certainly is not how it works down there. Remember, Jews on a grand scale moved there over 50 years ago, yet teenagers today are blowing themselves up? Hamas handpicks people they think can be brainwashed, and also uses the school system to brainwash children's minds. I hate to say this, but there is some extreme hatred that goes on in much of the Arabic world, much of it aimed at Jews. The average Jew wants the violence to end, as does the average Palestinian, but the terrorists want to terrorize.
I honestly am baffled by people with your point of view, seriously.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

How is it like a jail cell? Where do you guys come up with this stuff? The only houses that get bulldozed belong to terrorists. The only reason people become suicide bombers is because of mammoth propaganda and brainwashing. Your points of why it 'seems to make sense' why people become bombers is simply not true. There are also no human shields as you call them, the terrorists plant themselves in civilian areas in order to prevent IDF from attacking.
You are basically trying to rationalize why someone would blow themselves up, from your nice Canadian perspective, but it certainly is not how it works down there. Remember, Jews on a grand scale moved there over 50 years ago, yet teenagers today are blowing themselves up? Hamas handpicks people they think can be brainwashed, and also uses the school system to brainwash children's minds. I hate to say this, but there is some extreme hatred that goes on in much of the Arabic world, much of it aimed at Jews. The average Jew wants the violence to end, as does the average Palestinian, but the terrorists want to terrorize.
I honestly am baffled by people with your point of view, seriously.

so your saying someone can walk into your house take it over and your not going to do anything?

Someone would try to walk into my house to take it over better be ready to eat some knuckles or lead one or both.

[ResAlien]

Taking either side on this is like taking a side on abortion, jeebus or...gasp...dui's. People will always argue. I've had Egyptian friends argue the point of the Palestinians quite cleary, and Jewish friends argue the Israeli side just as eloquently. It's the middle east. People will get blow'd up, and nothing will ever change.

[HOZ]

How so very predictable. Gee "Israel is just as bad as the Palestinians" as if Hamas is THE representative all of Palestine rather than just Gaza which they grabbed by shooting up.....other Palestinians.

What exactly did Israel do?
- Keeping the cease fire with Hamas even though they suffered 3000+ missile attacks in 3 years
- Waiting 2 weeks while being shelled with 200+ missiles since the cease fire agreement ended.

Utter and absolute moral relevancy dung! Hamas picked this fight and got kicked in the head. Looks good on them.

Worst Anti-Israeli charges you will ever hear

Leftist 1: Israel's true motive in bombing Gaza, is genocide against the Palestinian people and extermination of their right to statehood.
Israel's genuine interest in this campaign is strikingly similar to Hamas' interest in firing scores of rockets into Israeli population centers: Forcing a cease-fire on better terms than the one just ended.
For Hamas, this largely means easing Israeli economic sanctions against Gazans. For Israel, this centers on ending shelling by Qassam and Grad missiles and mortar shells. For both sides, this means a prisoner exchange, centering on Gilad Shalit and hundreds of jailed Hamas members.

Leftist 2: The Palestinians have no recourse but to defend themselves, and the makeshift rockets they fire are nothing compared to the world's most advanced warplanes and munitions, which the IDF is using against them.

The Human Rights Watch organization has been unequivocal in condemning the use of Qassam rockets as a direct violation of international humanitarian law and the laws of war. The firing of Qassams and mortars against civilian populations also
constitutes collective punishment
against hundreds of thousands of innocent Israeli men, women and children.

Moreover, the firing of Qassams began not as a response to the siege against Gaza, but as a marathon celebration by armed Islamic fundamentalist groups following Israel's withdrawal of its troops and settlers from the Strip. To purposely add insult to injury, Islamic Jihad and other organizations used the ruins of settlements as launch platforms.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by PIMking

so your saying someone can walk into your house take it over and your not going to do anything?

Someone would try to walk into my house to take it over better be ready to eat some knuckles or lead one or both.

I can keep responding to your points, yet you avoid mine:

If someone walked into my house, I would do something. Now, you find one case where the guy launching the missile ever had someone walk into his house, and I will concede your point. The problem is that you cannot. You have somehow bought into the whole Israel versus the Palestinian people argument, which is not based on fact. It is Israel versus a terrorist group, a battle that has nothing to do with someone taking over a house. This is the same group murdering people in Lebanon and the same group (basically) that lost a war in Jordan and was booted out.

[LGA]

I'm going to agree with people that have said that both sides are wrong, and have done wrong, and as such have only exasperated the issue in that area as opposed to finding a true solution. I'm not so sure that peace will ever really be had in that region, simply because groups like Hamas are too into their own plans of greatness (kinda like the Nazis) and Israel, rightfully so, will defend themselves. Unfortunately the mass air raids won't exactly turn public opinion in your favour, it's too widespread in it's destructive capacity, the deaths that are caused by it will only be used as a rallying point, as a "see they kill our people" statement.

I'm not sure what they can do, Israel might have to adopt a less broad attack plan, which will cost a lot more manpower.

It's a cluster fudge over there, it's really sad that the citizens of both countries will probably never be able to leave in an environment where there's not always the imminent threat of war and despair.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Taking either side on this is like taking a side on abortion, jeebus or...gasp...dui's. People will always argue. I've had Egyptian friends argue the point of the Palestinians quite cleary, and Jewish friends argue the Israeli side just as eloquently. It's the middle east. People will get blow'd up, and nothing will ever change.

I find points like this very unfair and quite embarrassing. The sides are very clear, one group teaches kids to hate other people, wraps bombs around their children and blow up bus' and the other side is willing to do almost anything except create a scenario that will lead to their demise and you liken the argument to abortion or DUIs? Rather silly, don't you think? And I honestly have yet to hear a pretty good argument, as one side typically resorts to lame rhetoric and outright falsification. You can see it in this thread, many accusations at Israel, yet not based on fact. Justification of suicide bombings yet no mention of the major network that operates to create bombers.

The middle east certainly has lots of things blowing up, it amazes me that people blame Israel for it. If it wasn't for Israel, what other nation in the region would have cared for the Palestinians? Not one Arab nation has done anything for them, only Israel has tried. You see comments everywhere that Israel is preventing aid from entering the Gaza, yet is Egypt not bordering the area as well? No one but Israel seems to care, yet people here point the finger at Israel. Very strange.

[jammies]

Israel has its hardcore haters who try to block any attempt at peace just like the Arabs. It wasn't an Arab who assassinated Israeli leader Yitzak Rabin when it looked like the Oslo Accords might lead to trading (illegally occupied) land for peace. Does the following quote - "You’re dealing with a culture of thieves and robbers. Muhammad, their prophet, was a robber and a killer and a liar. The Arab destroys everything he touches." - sound like the rhetoric of reason? Were the Phalangist massacres during the Lebanese civil war not ultimately the responsibility of the Israelis? Are there not Jewish settlements in the West Bank protected by walls and guns in defiance of international law and UN resolutions?

Even in this current situation, does killing hundreds of people in the Gaza Strip seem like a reasonable response to one Israeli dying from rocket fire? Has repression of occupied territories ever worked before for the Israelis (again, look at the example of Lebanon), and if not, why is Israel trying the same failed policies once more?

In any conflict where the asymmetry of military force denies one side even the faintest hope of victory, the natural outcome is guerrilla warfare or "terrorism" where the weaker side resorts to the only possible means of resistance - covert operations, and operations against civilian targets. It is the same Israeli nation that fulminates against "terrorists" now whose founders were practitioners of terrorism themselves for this very reason when faced with the military supremacy of the British; you would think that this ultimately successful campaign would have taught their leaders that for every terrorist you kill by bombing his base into rubble, you create two more in the ruins.