Let's Talk Unions again [Split]

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Yup, all those police, teachers, health care workers, manufacturers...The fact that they're unionized has put us into a terrible recession.

Forget the Wallstreet elite or corrupt private sector big wigs; it's all the workers fault.

Its EVERYBODY'S fault. Private corporations, wealthy elites, unions, governments, consumers, working class, everyone. However, some are more at fault than others.

However, one can not dismiss the fact that many unions are bleeding their sectors dry. Healthcare is spiralling out of control, the Big 3 are on life support, schools can't afford to keep up with demand, etc.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Yup, all those police, teachers, health care workers, manufacturers...The fact that they're unionized has put us into a terrible recession.

Forget the Wallstreet elite or corrupt private sector big wigs; it's all the workers fault.

Commrade I do not have much time to discuss this...but IMO, unions came in to address issues that gov'ts currently address. ie: working conditions, age of workers, etc, the issues that arose from the Industrial Revolution.

I think they have out lived their usefulness. It make me angry to hear the same old same old from "workers". If the company owner has not taken a chance, yes even Henry Ford, then the "workers" would not have jobs. The reason high level mgt, make a lot of money is because there is so much riding on there decisions....but I guess anyone could do that job.......

Maybe I am just a union Luddite

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Poison

Ah now THAT is true, time served does dictate pay.
Except that wasnt what was said, it was argued seniority was the primary reason people got PROMOTED.

Im seriously doubting youre reading the posts before commenting.....

Well how about you answering the question or do I have to ask it a third time?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

However, one can not dismiss the fact that many unions are bleeding their sectors dry. Healthcare is spiralling out of control, the Big 3 are on life support, schools can't afford to keep up with demand, etc.

So you are saying the miserable state of our society is because unions exist in Health care, education, manufacturing, etc?

That really goes against what you just said about the recession being everybody's fault.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

So you are saying the miserable state of our society is because unions exist in Health care, education, manufacturing, etc?

That really goes against what you just said about the recession being everybody's fault.

I'm saying they are at fault, yes. They have inflated their rank and file costs, and created massive inefficiencies in their sectors.

I'm also saying that they are not alone.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by ok, ok,....I get it

I think they have out lived their usefulness. It make me angry to hear the same old same old from "workers". If the company owner has not taken a chance, yes even Henry Ford, then the "workers" would not have jobs.

Ford is one of the biggest auto manufacturers in the world, and has been for the past 100 years.

Did Henry personally work the assembly lines? Did Henry come up with all the technological advancements in past century?

Ford was built on the backs of hard working employees, which made Henry Ford a very wealthy man.

Congrats on having the idea and starting the business; but the wealth comes from those who worked under him.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

So you are saying the miserable state of our society is because unions exist in Health care, education, manufacturing, etc?

That really goes against what you just said about the recession being everybody's fault.

The point he was making is that everyone's taking it on the chin, while these unions refuse to acknowledge that for the sake of a future recovery it invloves them taking one on the chin to lover costs for producers/taxpayers as well.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Ford is one of the biggest auto manufacturers in the world, and has been for the past 100 years.

Did Henry personally work the assembly lines? Did Henry come up with all the technological advancements in past century?

Ford was built on the backs of hard working employees, which made Henry Ford a very wealthy man.

Congrats on having the idea and starting the business; but the wealth comes from those who worked under him.

yeah I know....you miss the point. I assume you are not self employed or own your company. But it is a big chance going into business. Do you think old Henry did not take a chance? Sure he did. Who should get rewarded for the risk?

[burn_this_city]

lol anyone showing up late for this thread is going to wonder what I was referring to in my OP..

[PsYcNeT]

So what's everyones take on the Union strike at York right now?

For those not in the know, the Teachers Assistants union was looking for a 2-year deal with a set raise %. The school offered them 3-years at the same %. It was voted down by the union.

The reason being that the provincial union has set plans to do a province wide strike in 2010 to gain certain wages and benefits they feel are required. Unfortunately, a 3-year deal could compromise this.

So, 40-45% of the union voted to go on strike. We all know that this is not a majority vote, but the worked who voted to strike went on strike anyway, and in response, the school deemed it did not have enough TAs to continue and locked-out the school.

No students at York have attended a class in over a month.

They will not be re-imbursed for time lost unless the strike lasts 3 months or more. If it last less, they will have a condensed school year and likely work into the summer, degrading the amount of money that could be earned by students during summer jobs.

Who is in the wrong here?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by ok, ok,....I get it

yeah I know....you miss the point. I assume you are not self employed or own your company. But it is a big chance going into business. Do you think old Henry did not take a chance? Sure he did. Who should get rewarded for the risk?

I am well aware of business risks and the potential for earning. My dad is a successful entrepreneur, as is my brother-in-law and many of my aunts and uncles who know the whims of owning a business. I have a Bachelor's of Commerce, have owned my own business, and am involved in the business side of public sector work working and partnering with the private sector. I'm well aware of what 'business' is.

The business owner is a small...SMALL fraction of who should be rewarded when you're talking about a company the size of Ford.

[Poison]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Well how about you answering the question or do I have to ask it a third time?

Because i answered the question already.

Again if said person is so industrious and conscientious they would have been noticed and promoted and therefore being compensated accordingly.

Again, performance is the number one reason you get premoted within an union, not seniority.

[Gozer]

Poison, in your opinion is there any downside to a union?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Poison, in your opinion is there any downside to a union?

Well since I'm a supporter of unions, I'll answer that.

Yes there is a downside. People get complacent about their job and can slack off more. I think that has more to do with a personal work ethic than it does where you set in the pecking order or how much money you make, but it is there.

Also, unions can be rigid, especially in demands. However, why wouldn't you fight for the best benefits you can get? Isn't that the essence of the private sector anyways? To maximize your return?

When you're a body representing 10,000+ people, you're not going to walk in like pushover. Unions have every right to fight for benefits.

The question is how rigid can they be; and it will never be a consensus answer.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by fotze

Ya and along with the risk comes the punishment of when the company fails, you don't think the CEO's of Ford and Chrysler will suffer huge when their company goes down, they will be suffering all the way to the bahamas.

actually I heard on the radio that in the states if you go into Chapter 11 you can rip up all contracts and start again. (I do not know if this is correct). So if they Big three or "anyone" else wants to address costs this could be one way.

[Poison]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Poison, in your opinion is there any downside to a union?

Of course there are, theres downsides to almost everything in life, whether people want to see them or not.

Ill admit there are people that have jobs that shouldnt, but this is not limited to just unions jobs.

Id like to ask anyone out there that had a non-union job and were truly railroaded through no fault of their own by their employer whether they would have appreciated someone being there to fight for their job back or at least to show they did nothing to deserve their termination.

Unions arent perfect im not arguing that, but its nice to know someone will be there if i get unfairly treated.
Its too bad people use that knowledge to their advantage and therefore do not work to their full capability or skills, but i wont let a few bad apples ruin the bunch.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Well since I'm a supporter of unions, I'll answer that.

Yes there is a downside. People get complacent about their job and can slack off more. I think that has more to do with a personal work ethic than it does where you set in the pecking order or how much money you make, but it is there.

Also, unions can be rigid, especially in demands. However, why wouldn't you fight for the best benefits you can get? Isn't that the essence of the private sector anyways? To maximize your return?

When you're a body representing 10,000+ people, you're not going to walk in like pushover. Unions have every right to fight for benefits.

The question is how rigid can they be; and it will never be a consensus answer.

wow did not even see poison's lips or fingers move.

[Poison]

Originally Posted by ok, ok,....I get it

wow did not even see poison's lips or fingers move.

Crazy huh, someone might actually think and feel the same way as I on this.....

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Poison

Crazy huh, someone might actually think and feel the same way as I on this.....

/green

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by Gozer

/green

Engels much?