Let's Talk Unions again [Split]

[burn_this_city]

Fair market value is the value of a job in a particular place. The cost of living is a heck of a lot higher in Calgary than say, Barrons. So cops will expect a greater wage to live and work in Calgary than Barrons.

Joe assembly line worker in Kentucky is making the same wage as Jim assembly line worker in Flint. They both work at Fords and they both have the same seniority. The cost of living in both those places wont be the same. So in some regards the UAW has pushed certain locals above fairmarket value. Coupled with the fact no one truly deserves $150,000 a year benefits in, putting a valve covers on a V8 for 30 years straight.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

So...You think unions drove up market demand and minimum wage expectations, and not the booming oil industry and private sector?

Sure thing.

No, the expectation of people in unrelated industries that they should make more on the sole basis that other people living in close proximity to them are making more drove up wage expectations. Life isn't cost plus, it's demand pull. You're worth what value you can provide your organization regardless of whether or not your neighbor makes more because his/her industry is doing well at the time. Any other compensation scheme causes interference in the market at arriving at fair compensation.

I bet you were pissed a year ago to two years ago that you made way less than your peers working for oil companies and probably felt that since you were similarily educated you deserved what they made. Well now you most likely get to keep your job and continue to work reasonable hours as opposed to us on the other side of the street where people are getting laid off and the ones that don't have to pull 60-70 hour weeks to keep their jobs. You traded job security for higher earning potential. You're peers who took the cash most likely will be rewarded for taking this type of risk, but they'll have to put up with more volitility in their incomes. Same goes for other people working non-oil and gas related jobs.

Some view equality as equality in opportnity as opposed to equality of outcome, mainly because it allows a means to reward people who are willing to make the most of their opportunities.

[Poison]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Fair market value is the value of a job in a particular place. The cost of living is a heck of a lot higher in Calgary than say, Barrons. So cops will expect a greater wage to live and work in Calgary than Barrons.

Joe assembly line worker in Kentucky is making the same wage as Jim assembly line worker in Flint. They both work at Fords and they both have the same seniority. The cost of living in both those places wont be the same. So in some regards the UAW has pushed certain locals above fairmarket value. Coupled with the fact no one truly deserves $150,000 a year benefits in, putting a valve covers on a V8 for 30 years straight.

If you mean to say local market thats one thing, thats not the same as saying market in general.......

For example, you can have the calgary real estate market and then the real estate market in general.


You can have the oil industry market which is not confined to one specific place.

If youre under the same collective agreement you get paid the SAME if you do the same job and have the same seniority regardless of where you are, and therefore you may be getting paid more than market wage in some areas if you choose to live there and you may be getting just market wage in other areas, it does not adjust if youre union under the same agreement on where you are.

[Sample00]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I must be the biggest fool in the world, but I just quit my job last week, and will be starting my own business in the new year.

and from one small business owner to another, I wish you nothing but success. Just be careful if your employees try to unionize. Pay them a fair wage, treat them with respect and you wont ever have to deal with a union.

[4X4]

As far as this union discussion, I think that the reason people start hating unions (like me) is because we've worked in one and were not slackers. I worked for Calgary Co-op for a couple of years and eventually quit because it was so pathetic how difficult it was to get rid of crappy employees. And alot of these people simply revel it in. Like the ###### in the confessions thread wearing the sock puppet to antagonize his superior. Insubordination is not tolerated anywhere else, so why do union peons get away with it?
And it's the useless tits that continue to be employed that eventually drag down the company. The piss poor attitude of one guy is evident in his work. And then the next guy, who is actually giving it 95% sees that the jerk off next to him is getting away with murder (late all the time, call in sick as often as possible, long breaks, punch out on the very dot of 5) and it erodes his work ethic. And eventually, you have a big mass of people that are all working at 70% capacity that are too afraid to work harder than the other people because it's against the culture.
I know that is a pretty big generalization, but it's fricken true. I saw it at Co-op, I saw it at Canada Post. I was always one of the hardest working people and I was just going normal pace. The union mentality just sickens me. The whole idea of deliberately not getting stuff done to make it take longer to get paid more just goes against my entire being. But the people who like to stick it to the man? Guess where you find them? Working for unions.
Again, not everyone that works for a union is like this, but a whole bunch of them are. A whole bunch. And you just don't find that nearly as much non-unionized setting. Because losers like that get fired.

[Poison]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

No, the expectation of people in unrelated industries that they should make more on the sole basis that other people living in close proximity to them are making more drove up wage expectations. Life isn't cost plus, it's demand pull. You're worth what value you can provide your organization regardless of whether or not your neighbor makes more because his/her industry is doing well at the time. Any other compensation scheme causes interference in the market at arriving at fair compensation.

I bet you were pissed a year ago to two years ago that you made way less than your peers working for oil companies and probably felt that since you were similarily educated you deserved what they made. Well now you most likely get to keep your job and continue to work reasonable hours as opposed to us on the other side of the street where people are getting laid off and the ones that don't have to pull 60-70 hour weeks to keep their jobs. You traded job security for higher earning potential. You're peers who took the cash most likely will be rewarded for taking this type of risk, but they'll have to put up with more volitility in their incomes. Same goes for other people working non-oil and gas related jobs.

Some view equality as equality in opportnity as opposed to equality of outcome, mainly because it allows a means to reward people who are willing to make the most of their opportunities.

So let me get this straight, unions and their "sticky wages" are to blame for driving up wages and slowing the progress of market self correction but the oil industry isnt when they were paying a mailroom employee $25 an hour? Forcing a place like tims to pay $15 an hour just to somewhat compete?

[Poison]

Originally Posted by 4X4

As far as this union discussion, I think that the reason people start hating unions (like me) is because we've worked in one and were not slackers. I worked for Calgary Co-op for a couple of years and eventually quit because it was so pathetic how difficult it was to get rid of crappy employees. And alot of these people simply revel it in. Like the ###### in the confessions thread wearing the sock puppet to antagonize his superior. Insubordination is not tolerated anywhere else, so why do union peons get away with it?
And it's the useless tits that continue to be employed that eventually drag down the company. The piss poor attitude of one guy is evident in his work. And then the next guy, who is actually giving it 95% sees that the jerk off next to him is getting away with murder (late all the time, call in sick as often as possible, long breaks, punch out on the very dot of 5) and it erodes his work ethic. And eventually, you have a big mass of people that are all working at 70% capacity that are too afraid to work harder than the other people because it's against the culture.
I know that is a pretty big generalization, but it's fricken true. I saw it at Co-op, I saw it at Canada Post. I was always one of the hardest working people and I was just going normal pace. The union mentality just sickens me. The whole idea of deliberately not getting stuff done to make it take longer to get paid more just goes against my entire being. But the people who like to stick it to the man? Guess where you find them? Working for unions.
Again, not everyone that works for a union is like this, but a whole bunch of them are. A whole bunch. And you just don't find that nearly as much non-unionized setting. Because losers like that get fired.

You know im sorry you had a crappy experience with a union but its ignorant people like you that give unions a bad name.
It always the same with people that have something against a union, a broad stroked general statement like "everyone in unions are useless and lazy"

Like i said in a previous post there are plenty of lazy, useless people in NON union jobs as well, and as shocking as it may be to hear theyve had the job for 30 years as well...

[habernac]

Originally Posted by Poison

You know im sorry you had a crappy experience with a union but its ignorant people like you that give unions a bad name.
It always the same with people that have something against a union, a broad stroked general statement like "everyone in unions are useless and lazy"

Like i said in a previous post there are plenty of lazy, useless people in NON union jobs as well, and as shocking as it may be to hear theyve had the job for 30 years as well...

yes, hard working people always give unions a bad name.



He didn't say all union people were useless. He said some are. And its a higher rate than it would be at non-unionized jobs as it's easier to fire useless people.

[Poison]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Unions inhibit the free market. Your example doesn't.

My point was the wages in this city were driven up more to do with the fact the oil industry was doing well and paying accordingly then what the union wages have been for years and years.....

[Poison]

Originally Posted by habernac

yes, hard working people always give unions a bad name.



He didn't say all union people were useless. He said some are. And its a higher rate than it would be at non-unionized jobs as it's easier to fire useless people.

So if he said some union members were how is that any different then non-union jobs?

Thats my point, you can say the exact same thing about non-union jobs, so why is that comment being made specifically towards union jobs????

You say its a higher rate, and thats why youre plain ignorant as well, show me a proven statistic that thats the case, you just make me laugh....

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Poison

You know im sorry you had a crappy experience with a union but its ignorant people like you that give unions a bad name.
It always the same with people that have something against a union, a broad stroked general statement like "everyone in unions are useless and lazy"

Like i said in a previous post there are plenty of lazy, useless people in NON union jobs as well, and as shocking as it may be to hear theyve had the job for 30 years as well...

Bullsh1t. Total bullsh1t. IT's not "people like me" that give unions a bad name. It's the lazy slackers that file greivenmces every time they get written up foir being late.

Go ahead and and think that it's me that's making you look bad, but it aint.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by 4X4

As far as this union discussion, I think that the reason people start hating unions (like me) is because we've worked in one and were not slackers. I worked for Calgary Co-op for a couple of years and eventually quit because it was so pathetic how difficult it was to get rid of crappy employees. And alot of these people simply revel it in. Like the ###### in the confessions thread wearing the sock puppet to antagonize his superior. Insubordination is not tolerated anywhere else, so why do union peons get away with it?
And it's the useless tits that continue to be employed that eventually drag down the company. The piss poor attitude of one guy is evident in his work. And then the next guy, who is actually giving it 95% sees that the jerk off next to him is getting away with murder (late all the time, call in sick as often as possible, long breaks, punch out on the very dot of 5) and it erodes his work ethic. And eventually, you have a big mass of people that are all working at 70% capacity that are too afraid to work harder than the other people because it's against the culture.

Couldn't agree more.

Then said crappy employee gets promoted all because of the seniority BS.

Why bother rewarding hard work and excellence and letting the cream rise to the top when you can let the slackers run the ship? Nothing like a union to kill productivity.

[Poison]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Bullsh1t. Total bullsh1t. IT's not "people like me" that give unions a bad name. It's the lazy slackers that file greivenmces every time they get written up foir being late.

Go ahead and and think that it's me that's making you look bad, but it aint.

Who said youre making me look bad???
You want to paint with a broad brush go ahead, it wont be me thats looking bad....

You must have had one f'ed up union then, because the unions i know will not file a grievence on your behalf if youre late unless theres a legitimate reason.

Im sure that either A) Never happened or B) Youre only telling part of the story to make your stance look better.

[habernac]

Originally Posted by Poison

So if he said some union members were how is that any different then non-union jobs?

Thats my point, you can say the exact same thing about non-union jobs, so why is that comment being made specifically towards union jobs????

You say its a higher rate, and thats why youre plain ignorant as well, show me a proven statistic that thats the case, you just make me laugh....

I've worked both types of jobs and seen it first hand. I don't have the energy to find a statistic for you (and stats can be twisted any which way anyway). Go ahead and proove my "ignorance" with some stats of your own.

[Poison]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Couldn't agree more.

Then said crappy employee gets promoted all because of the seniority BS.

Why bother rewarding hard work and excellence and letting the cream rise to the top when you can let the slackers run the ship? Nothing like a union to kill productivity.

Yup, employees get promoted just because of their seniority....... This just gets funnier.....

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Poison

Yup, employees get promoted just because of their seniority....... This just gets funnier.....

Are you completely sure you actually work in a union?

Every union I worked for had whiney senior people who did nothing and got promoted because hard working younger people lacked seniority.

[Poison]

Originally Posted by habernac

I've worked both types of jobs and seen it first hand. I don't have the energy to find a statistic for you (and stats can be twisted any which way anyway). Go ahead and proove my "ignorance" with some stats of your own.

I dont need to provide statistics since i never claimed non-union people work "harder", you did, so like i said before you just are one of those people that see a few examples and therefore, that must be the rule.

[burn_this_city]

Theres just oodles of incentive to work my hands to the bone when everyone else is working at 70%.. Seriously? You believe this garbage?

[Poison]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Are you completely sure you actually work in a union?

Every union I worked for had whiney senior people who did nothing and got promoted because hard working younger people lacked seniority.

Sure am, for ten years, so i actually know how people get promoted within a union.

Shockingly enough alot has to do with your work in your role now, the only time seniority comes into play is if two people apply and have shown the same skills and work ethic then the seniority will apply, and ive seen that happen only twice it never is usually that close between two applicants.

[Poison]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Theres just oodles of incentive to work my hands to the bone when everyone else is working at 70%.. Seriously? You believe this garbage?

I dont even need to defend my point, you guys are doing it for me.....