Man dies after being tasered in Vancouver Airport

Originally Posted by Dion

In early September 2005, a Chicago teenager was caused to go into ventricular fibrillation as a result of being shocked with a Taser. That was significant because Taser International has always maintained that its stun guns cannot cause this usually fatal heart disturbance in which the heart loses the ability to pump blood.

Apparently, the only reason the teenager survived was that he received immediate medical attention. Dr. Wayne H. Franklin, a pediatric electrophysiologist at Children’s Memorial Hospital in Chicago (and a second doctor), claimed that an electrocardiogram confirmed that the boy did, in fact, suffer fibrillation.

Dr. Franklin stated that this case demonstrated the danger posed by Tasers and why portable defibrillators should be available whenever the stun guns may be used.

http://www.newsinferno.com/archives/1116

Again, it is very dangerous to link a paragraph. We know nothing about the kids background, etc.

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

just dumping stuff here as i come across it from some of the articles:
so it is possible that the taser will cause an ectopic beat in some adults.

through DIRECT effects. there is a lot of evidence that heart problems can result from indirect effects (i.e. adrenaline). also, this is purely theoretical


the ones from sorento, italy are using a very controlled environment and a ridiculously small sample size that anyone trying to draw a meaningful solid conclusion from that would be laughed at.

Again, I can link more.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Ummm... adrenaline does have a direct effect on the heart,

taser causes the adrenaline causes the effect on the heart. the taser's effect on the heart is indirect in the context of that article. and therefore that particular study was discounting that.

[MaxPower]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Again, it is very dangerous to link a paragraph. We know nothing about the kids background, etc.

Why does it matter?

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Again, I can link more.

i don't think you should bother.. the 4 i read where too flawed to draw a meaningful conclusion from or outright supported what i was saying...

so in a random sampling of half of your articles: 2/6 were flawed studies and could not be conclusive. 1/6 was theoretical and just guessing - and even then it left it open that they are possibly dangerous. 1/6 was the opposite of what you're trying to say. 1/6 the file was corrupted and would not open and 1/6 the article no longer exists.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by MaxPower

Why does it matter?

because people who take drugs/alcohol or have a pre-existing condition that was aggravated by the taser or were worked up when they were tasered aren't people so it doesn't matter if they die? i dunno

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

because people who take drugs/alcohol or have a pre-existing condition that was aggravated by the taser or were worked up when they were tasered aren't people so it doesn't matter if they die? i dunno

Stop sensationalizing. It's getting ridiculous. Every form of control or less lethal option can cause serious side effects including death in subjects with a pre-existing or acute condition. That's the point of questioning a simple paragraph or link.

As I stated, I can link 50 plus other articles- I guess they are all flawed in some way? I don't see the point in continuing the discussion if you only randomly sample 4 of the linked articles and decide (based on your background of scientific studies?) that they aren't up to your high standards.

Not much more to say really. Let me recap what I have put forth:

1) A discussion of how police are trained with specific attention to taser deployment including use of force models and lesser forms of physical control
2) Scientific studies (from both sides) on taser use.
3) The actual physical deployment of tasers- how they work.

You guys tend only to put forth links of people dying from its use (with little or no background on the subject or the tasers use) and opinion based statements initiated by the end result of taser deployment with little or no consideration to anything other then the outcome.

While I do not debate that further studies on tasers need to be completed, I do not debate their value in saving lives.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Stop sensationalizing. It's getting ridiculous. Every form of control or less lethal option can cause serious side effects including death in subjects with a pre-existing or acute condition. That's the point of questioning a simple paragraph or link.

As I stated, I can link 50 plus other articles- I guess they are all flawed in some way? I don't see the point in continuing the discussion if you only randomly sample 4 of the linked articles and decide (based on your background of scientific studies?) that they aren't up to your high standards.

Not much more to say really. Let me recap what I have put forth:

1) A discussion of how police are trained with specific attention to taser deployment including use of force models and lesser forms of physical control
2) Scientific studies (from both sides) on taser use.
3) The actual physical deployment of tasers- how they work.

You guys tend only to put forth links of people dying from its use (with little or no background on the subject or the tasers use) and opinion based statements initiated by the end result of taser deployment with little or no consideration to anything other then the outcome.

While I do not debate that further studies on tasers need to be completed, I do not debate their value in saving lives.

i tried to sample 6 - that's one half and all i had time for at the moment. 2 didn't work - 1 was corrupted and 1 didn't exist. apparently you aren't even clicking on your own links.

tasers can save lives but are less safe than some people make them out to be - as backed up by your own links. therefore, maybe a review of how they are used is necessary.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

based on your background of scientific studies

yes, i do have a background in science. yes, i have done formal reviews of papers from peer review journals. yes, i have written papers.

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

that they aren't up to your high standards.

did you even read the papers and abstracts you posted? they go as far to mention the study is flawed due to the sample size IN THE PAPER ITSELF!

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

yes, i do have a background in science. yes, i have done formal reviews of papers from peer review journals. yes, i have written papers.


did you even read the papers and abstracts you posted? they go as far to mention the study is flawed due to the sample size IN THE PAPER ITSELF!

Yes, some of them say that. As I stated, I have a whole tonne of abstracts and papers.


By the way, I looked at the video again, its clear that he had nothing in his hands when first approached but as the video advances and after he gets tasered, he is clearly holding something in his hand.

Realizing this thread has morphed into something else, I just wondered if that changed anyones opinion of the actual event.

[jolinar of malkshor]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...ziekanski.html

Looks like CBSA officers went above and beyond to help him.

[Dion]

Inquest into Dziekanski Death Delayed

http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/...+death+delayed

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Dion

Inquest into Dziekanski Death Delayed

http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/...+death+delayed

I am going to interview for a position as a researcher in the inquest... could be interesting. Maybe I'll be able to offer some more insight into this situation .... if I get the job.

[jar_e]

Bump....

All four RCMP officers will not be charged criminally.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...h-charges.html

[hockeycop]

Good. The use of force was appropriate and justified. Very unfortunate outcome, appropriate response. Glad to see the tools themselves are now being looked at to see if the electricity ratings are accurate.

[metallicat]

Good. I realize that isn't a popular opinion on this subject, but good. Obviously a tragic situation that was aggravated by language barriers, but there was still no excuse for his behaviour. The police officers did not go into that situation with the intention of committing a criminal act, and therefore the right decision was made. This is going to raise a lot of stink in this country.

[Bagor]

Good decision.

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

but there was still no excuse for his behaviour.

What? You have nothing to back that up whatsoever.

The man appeared completely disorientated.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Bagor

What? You have nothing to back that up whatsoever.

The man appeared completely disorientated.

The man was throwing chairs and computers and was causing a disturbance in a security intensive area, all this before he resisted arrest. How are the RCMP to know that he has been there for an extended period of time? Should they magically know this, or should be fluent in every dialect known to man? Facts of the matter are that they can't standby and watch a guy destroy property and they need to act. It is unfortunate what happened to him, but the police acted using the tools that they had been given.

In retrospect they could have waited longer and got a translator in, but that isn't the role of the police, they don't have the manpower to babysit every guy that wants to throw something around, they arrest him and if he resists arrest there is a possibility of using a taser in order to make him compliant with the demands of the officers.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Good decision.



What? You have nothing to back that up whatsoever.

The man appeared completely disorientated.

I don't care what country you are from or what language you speak, if you can't figure out who the guys in uniforms with guns and tasers are then there is a serious problem.

[Bagor]

MMR,

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying or saying the RCMP was wrong. I'm disagreeing with the statement that his behaviour was inexcusable when we don't know the underlying causes that caused the event (e.g. he could have had a hypoglycaemic event leading to the confusion, the stress could have triggered an underlying dementia event, a hypoxic event to the brain, who knows?). He (IMO) appeared to be clearly disorientated. Again, not saying how the RCMP acted was wrong, just an unfortunate outcome.

We simply don't know that his actions were simply malicious and therefore inexcusable.

Originally Posted by Rathji

if you can't figure out who the guys in uniforms with guns and tasers are then there is a serious problem.

Yes. That in itself suggests to me he was disorientated and unaware of his surroundings .