I Baptize Dead People

[Dion]

[eddly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

hmmm ok, I have a few.

1) The Angel Moroni. Explain?

Moroni was the last prophet in the Book of Mormon. He visited Joseph Smith a few times.

2) In 1828 after Joseph Smith's God had told him to join no other church he applied for membership at a Methodist Church. Why did he disobey the Angel?

Actually you can take it back further to 1820. At this time Joseph learned that all churches on the Earth were not entirely correct. Why was he still interested in the Methodist church? I don't know. Anything I can come up with would just be speculation. I'm guessing he would have been pretty bored staying at home every Sunday. I believe a portion of his family was also attending the Methodist church at this time. I don't recall Joseph Smith being directly told to not join the Methodist church. Not denying it though as it would of course seem strange to do so considering what his claims were.

3) The Gold Plates. Have you or anyone in your family ever seen them? Has anyone in the church?

No one in my family has seen the plates as far as I know. I don't know if anyone in the church that is alive today has seen them. No one has claimed as much.

4) IF Joseph Smith suggested the translation of the plates was correct in 1830...why have their been revisions in later editions?

I don't know. The changes vary in their severity. I'm not going to pretend that they are all grammatical changes. Are you concerned with the fact that changes were made or by the substance of the changes?

5) Are women able to attain leadership IN THE CHURCH? If not why not?

What do you define leadership as being? Can women speak in church? Yes they can. Can they teach classes? Yes they can. Can they serve missions? Yes they can. Can they lead groups of people? Yes, there are several organizations within the church that women lead. If you are referring to whether or not a woman can become a prophet? Well, I don't know. It hasn't happened yet, but it could in the future.

6) Are people of color able to attain leadership in the church?

Yes.

7) These were original tenats of the LDS, termed as essential...

- The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father);
- the United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church);
- Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven);
- the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God's priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978);
- Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities)

If they were termed essential by the early church, and supposedly the "word of God", why have they been abandoned?

That is a great question, unfortunately I do not have a suitable answer for you. I simply don't know. This all originates with the prophet Brigham Young. I wish I could ask him about these things as well.

8) and lastly...the LDS scripture called "Doctrine and Covenants" were prophecies by the Prophet Joseph Smith. How many of the prohecies outlined in this document have come true? If any name them.

This will depend on what you consider to be prophecies. There are numerous. Off the top of my head, there were several regarding members of the church at the time... and another easy one to refer to is the translation of the Book of Mormon. Are there some that have not yet come to pass? Yes. Are there some that seemingly can no longer come to pass? Yes. Is this a problem? I'm not sure. I imagine circumstances can change. I'm sure we can see similar circumstances in the Bible.
Thanks.

Thanks for your questions. I realize I may not have gone into as much depth as you want. It may seem like I am hiding something, but honestly the average mormon would not be able to answer the majority of your questions to your satisfaction. We simply don't know everything. So, I think I did pretty good

[eddly]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

I have a couple of questions. How do you justify adherence to a church with such strange beliefs? Were you born into this church or did you join as an adult? I'm wondering about someone's rationale for joining such an organization. I've studied the Morman faith and don't have a very high opinion. I won't say more for fear of offending someone.

Please define strange for me. Is something strange to you because it is not part of what you define as being normal? Reality is what we perceive it to be. You see something as being abnormal. Another person sees that same thing as being normal. We live in a very diverse world. Instead of judging religions or cultures based on our own perceptions, we need to be open minded and respectful of others. I mean everyone in general, even myself.

I was born into the church.

[eddly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

sensory deprivation program

What is the source for this? I'd like to read more on it.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by eddly

Thanks for your questions. I realize I may not have gone into as much depth as you want. It may seem like I am hiding something, but honestly the average mormon would not be able to answer the majority of your questions to your satisfaction. We simply don't know everything. So, I think I did pretty good

I understand that most Mormons cant answer the questions I posed...and Im certain that ALL of the Mormon leadership couldnt answer them either, at least not without letting the cat out of the bag...so to speak.
Lets take the prohecies question a bit further shall we?
IF Joseph Smith was indeed a Prophet, then all of his prophecies should come true...not? I mean how can you be a Prophet if most of your prophecies are either false or never happen?
So when JS prophesized that there would be a second coming within 56 years, that the US government would be overthrown, Congress to broken up, finding treasure in Salem, Mass, Pestilence to befall many...etc etc etc..
How does the average Mormon justify these false prophecies? Mistakes? Written down wrong? JS didnt really say them?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Cheese

So when JS prophesized that there would be a second coming within 56 years, that the US government would be overthrown, Congress to broken up, finding treasure in Salem, Mass, Pestilence to befall many...etc etc etc..
How does the average Mormon justify these false prophecies? Mistakes? Written down wrong? JS didnt really say them?

These are claims that are in the D&C? If so, could you provide locations for them. If not, then what is your source? I don't recall any claims specific to the ones you are making.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Rathji

These are claims that are in the D&C? If so, could you provide locations for them. If not, then what is your source? I don't recall any claims specific to the ones you are making.

Rathji...there are literally hundreds of websites showing all of the false prophecies regarding the D & C. I could link them but its really easy to check them out for yourself and then you can select which one you believe.

[Rathji]

Ok, let me bottom line this for you then.

Anyone can post something on a website and claim it is what the LDS Church believes. If you can point out a website where the LDS Church itself claims it believes something, then I will answer any questions about that. If you can find something in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants or Pearl of Great Price, I will try and answer your questions about that.

If you want to know why the website www.antimormon.com says that Joseph Smith raped 300 monkeys in whore houses, you are out of luck here. I will give you a hint though, and it has something to do with if you should be believing everything you read on the internet.

If you would like some real answers to real concerns, I would be glad to help.

If your goal is anything other than that, I suggest you stop posting in this thread.

Edit: I have no idea what antimormon.com says about monkeys. I didn't even realize it was a real website until I hit post.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Where and how did you obtain your knowledge?

One course, two books, independent research and a friend who is a former Morman. I expect some here will try to discredit one or more of these sources, especially the last one, non-independent or someone or groups who have a bias. I'm finding this thread interesting.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

One course, two books, independent research and a friend who is a former Morman. I expect some here will try to discredit one or more of these sources, especially the last one, non-independent or someone or groups who have a bias. I'm finding this thread interesting.

I would trust you getting more correct info from your friend who was mormon than I would trust you getting from any random website on the subject.

I looked back through your some of your posts MoneyGuy and I can't figure out your question. Feel free to repost it and I will give it a shot.

Edit: Never mind, I found the post with the questions.

How do I justify belonging to a church with such strange beliefs? Was I an adult?

Like the majority if LDS members, I converted when I was an adult, and at the time pretty much anything to do with this dude rising from the dead after being hung on a cross seemed pretty strange.

In fact right now, I can honestly tell you that I don't see why people think mormons are so strange. I mean you can beleive that God exists, that Jesus was his son and rose from the dead 3 days after he died. Yet you can't believe that God talks to prophets today. When it boils down to it, that is the only real, tangilble difference between the LDS church and any other Christian church that exists in the world today.

Sure some believe in baptizing this way, or that way, or other minor differences. The main thing is the belief that by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ you can be saved. That is the key. I don't care if you are Baptist, Methodist or Mormon. If you believe that Christ is your saviour then what you believe is right.

End of Story.

I hope that answers your question, because I kinda got off tanget there.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I would trust you getting more correct info from your friend who was mormon than I would trust you getting from any random website on the subject.

I looked back through your some of your posts MoneyGuy and I can't figure out your question. Feel free to repost it and I will give it a shot.

My question is essentially this: What motivates an adult to join this church? I thought that most adherents were born into the church (many who are born into it end up leaving) but I know that many also join as adults. Why?

[Rathji]

Yeah, I figured your question out and answered it in my previous post through an edit.

I am interested in what course you learned about the LDS church?

In response to your last question:
Many who are born into the church end up leaving because like anything in life you need to believe for yourself. Belief in God isn't really something that you can be told about and then accept. You really need to figure it out and believe for yourself. Sometimes that doesn't happen though. It doesn't matter if you are born into it or not, you still need to believe if you are going to remain a member.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Ok, let me bottom line this for you then.

Anyone can post something on a website and claim it is what the LDS Church believes. If you can point out a website where the LDS Church itself claims it believes something, then I will answer any questions about that. If you can find something in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants or Pearl of Great Price, I will try and answer your questions about that.

If you want to know why the website www.antimormon.com says that Joseph Smith raped 300 monkeys in whore houses, you are out of luck here. I will give you a hint though, and it has something to do with if you should be believing everything you read on the internet.

If you would like some real answers to real concerns, I would be glad to help.

If your goal is anything other than that, I suggest you stop posting in this thread.

Edit: I have no idea what antimormon.com says about monkeys. I didn't even realize it was a real website until I hit post.

So let me get this straight...the only way youll believe something is false regarding the church and its doctrines is if the LDS says it or proves it themselves?
Have you actually taken the time to read some of the articles in any of the websites I posted?
You know Rathji...if you disbelieved 50% of the stuff in links I posted that would still leave 50% as true. Its obvious the sales job by the LDS is fantastic if you are that sold on their product.

http://www.exmormon.org/

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon439.htm

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Cheese

So let me get this straight...the only way youll believe something is false regarding the church and its doctrines is if the LDS says it or proves it themselves?

No, that is not what I said.

What I said is, I will not try and explain why the Church teaches something that it clearly doesn't teach. If you have a question about something the Church actually does teach then ask, and I will do my best to give an answer.

As for the claims of anti-mormon websites, I have read them and alot of what they say is partially true and taken way out of context, some is pretty close to true and some is such an outright lie that I have no idea where they got it from. I won't list and debunk all of these websites for your personal enjoyment.

[Thor]

This discussion reminded me of this Audio on Mormons by Christopher Hitchens, if anyone is interested. This is from his book God is not Great, audio version obviously.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYLLnGtW2qs
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX7nzo3jaGA

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

One course, two books, independent research and a friend who is a former Morman. I expect some here will try to discredit one or more of these sources, especially the last one, non-independent or someone or groups who have a bias. I'm finding this thread interesting.

No, I won't try to discredit anything you've listed there at all. But I find it simply amazing that the information provided by two current Mormons (Rathji I think is practicing, my apologies if not) and one former who grew up in the church (myself) is simply dismissed and laughed at.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Cheese

So let me get this straight...the only way youll believe something is false regarding the church and its doctrines is if the LDS says it or proves it themselves?
Have you actually taken the time to read some of the articles in any of the websites I posted?
You know Rathji...if you disbelieved 50% of the stuff in links I posted that would still leave 50% as true. Its obvious the sales job by the LDS is fantastic if you are that sold on their product.

http://www.exmormon.org/

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon439.htm

Don't you think Rathji, Eddly and I would KNOW what is actually taught by the church?

Your willingness to believe all the stuff found at the links you've listed coupled with your complete unwillingness to believe what we've told you is baffling to me.

[RougeUnderoos]

Part of the problem here is that specific questions aren't really answered, or they are danced around.

I'm going to steal from Cheese...

One prophecy was that there would be a second coming in 56 years. It didn't happen, how do you explain that?

It's pretty straightforward. It was never really answered though. All we get is "if it didn't come directly from the church website..."which is not really an answer at all. First of all, I don't expect that the church would list false prophecies on their website. Why would they? Just because they don't have it up there doesn't mean it didn't happen though.

Maybe a better way to put the question to an expert (a Mormon) would be "did Joseph Smith say their would be a second coming that didn't happen"? It's really a "yes or no" kind of a question.

"I don't know" is also a possible answer, I guess.

"If it's not listed on the official LDS website, then no" isn't really an answer.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Don't you think Rathji, Eddly and I would KNOW what is actually taught by the church?

Your willingness to believe all the stuff found at the links you've listed coupled with your complete unwillingness to believe what we've told you is baffling to me.

You are not the only ex-Mormon Dis. Quite frankly my eyes are wide open and with literally thousands of ex-Mormans spouting the same stuff, Id say you probably were either very young when you left or didnt really pay attention. Quite frankly the vast majority of Mormons know nothing at all...nothing but what is told.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Cheese

You are not the only ex-Mormon Dis.

Of course not, but I don't have an agenda either.