Coalition Deal To Topple Minority Tory Govt- [Update Parliament Prorogued until Jan]

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by browna

Well, looks like its to be Ignatieff
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...rals-dion.html

These are the same Liberals that hoped to have Dion in there as PM with a vote tomorrow, if Harper had kept Parliment alive?

Makes more sense for the Liberals from the start to have a guy like this.

One almost wonders if that miscommunication with Dion's tape was semi-intentional, sincer Parliment was already done....as if you notice at the bottom of the article, they are quoting Liberals who are throwing him under the bus for him and "his team" in that "snafu" (btw a great game for the old Intellivision). Thus, the new leader can distance himself from Dion and use that as a valid reason as why they are replacing him.

Interesting. This guy will beat Harper, he's above this coallition crap, but in the next vote, whenever that is, he'll beat Harper. He's more balanced both socially and economically, and a good middle of the road pick for alot of people. I've never voted liberal in my life but I may vote for him if his policies are similar to what I expect them to be.

[V]

This is bad news for the Cons. Ignatieff will be popular with a lot of folks, and this will be a clean enough break to put the coalition garbage behind them when the time is right.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by fotze

Dion to step down this week.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/Dion+st...421/story.html

OTTAWA — Liberal Leader Stephane Dion plans to step down as early as Monday to pave the way for a permanent successor who could lead a coalition government or lead his party into a federal election early next year if the Harper government is defeated.

While word of his resignation was leaked to reporters and he was not personally confirming it, a fierce battle was underway between top rivals for his job, Toronto MPs Michael Ignatieff and Bob Rae, about how the party will go about replacing him.

I don't think this is really a smart idea. The best thing to do is have Dion take all of the criticism for the coalition and have a leader who can come in afterwards and take it over while keeping his image relatively clean. Instead, the new leader, likely Ignatieff, will still need to deal with the coalition and confidence vote issue early in the new year. He won't be able to continue to be in the background on the whole coalition issue. Hopefully he'll take a more moderate approach.

[browna]

I think at least he will be more grounded and tell the NDP and Bloc to F-off in the short term, in addition to distancing himself from Dion. He's also likely to be more reasonable and likely can work with Harper on the budget with a bit more credibility.

All of this will mean that the coaltion talk will be swept under the rug once and for all, I can't see, if he has the reasonability that he's shown in the past, that he will cut any deal in the next month and probably call it the horrible, wasteful idea it was.

Because of this levelheadedness, he will gain respsect of many who were against a coaltion and see him as a reasonable guy for working with the government as opposed to entering a dubious seperatist coalition in the short term.

If he has paintence and is a well spoken, smart guy, long term, he will give Harper all he can handle next election.

[killer_carlson]

this will be bad news for the Conservative Party of Canada, but it is terrific news to conservative Canadians.

Bob Rae is an NDP socialist. It would be economic suicide.

Ignatief is a right leaning Liberal, who very easily could be mistaken for a Conservative.

Given that the alternative was someone who would ruin our nation's economy possibly forever, this is welcome news.

[calculoso]

LOL... Watching CBC news. They're essentially saying Ignatieff will be voted as leader by the MPs.

Here's the funny part:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...rals-dion.html

Rae also said on Sunday that a closed-door decision by the Liberal caucus and party executives — both of which are top-heavy with Ignatieff supporters — wouldn't be the right way to choose a permanent leader.

"It can't simply be a small group of people behind closed doors," he said, adding it would be inappropriate.

So, Mr. Rae..

It is NOT okay for MPs to choose the next Liberal Leader, and it should be the rank-and-file of the Liberal party that makes the decision....

... but it IS okay for MPs to form a coalition and choose the next PM?

Ridiculous. If that doesn't show that it is all about power, I don't know what will.

[metallicat]

I would have LOVED to see the Dion show continue for as long as possible, but I knew it wouldn't last. He's done, and he's done too much damage to the Liberals. Unfortunately for me as a CPC supporter, but fortunately for Liberal supporters, Ignatieff is going to be a much better leader for that party.

At the very least, he's someone I won't be embarassed to have on Larry King Live as our PM eventually. I think he and the Libs will get there, but if there is an election called after January, I think the Conservatives still get it. Ignatieff will get his chance.

[Rerun]

As a CPC supporter, I'm rooting for Rae to pull off a miracle and get elected as leader of the Liberals.

If Ignatieff gets elected, the best thing I can hope for is that a lot of left leaning Libs pull their support from the party and start voting NDP. They're definitely out there. They're the ones who blocked Ignatieff from winning the last leadership convention. The Rae supporters (and there are a lot of them in the rank and file) definitely won't be happy if Ignatieff is declared the winner without a democratic vote by all the party members.

[Russic]

Wow, this whole mess has really driven home my feelings of contempt towards every single party leader. At this point I would probably have more faith in the government if all decisions were made by spinning a giant wheel.

[Ford Prefect]

The way the Libs are going about this it's nothing more than a coronation. There's nothing democratic about it all. It's just a king-making exercise by the Liberal elite. They'd better be pulling out of this coalition since their new leader will have no legitimacy whatsoever, whoever it turns out to be.

Wouldn't Dion being replaced make that signed coalition agreement between the three amigos null and void anyway? In it Dion was supposedly cited as the PM under the signed and witnessed coalition agreement. Doesn't changing who would serve as PM change the agreement in such a fundamental and substantial manner that the whole agreement should become void? Or are the legal documents these guys sign as meaningless as their oaths?

This is all a farce.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

The way the Libs are going about this it's nothing more than a coronation. There's nothing democratic about it all. It's just a king-making exercise by the Liberal elite. They'd better be pulling out of this coalition since their new leader will have no legitimacy whatsoever, whoever it turns out to be.
This is all a farce.

At the same time, the way the minority leader tried to introduce extreme partisan legislation thinking that the opposition parties would be forced to pass it, was also something you would expect from a dictator.

They were all trying to exercise more poweer than they ought to.

[FanIn80]

This whole thing just reeks of Liberal greed.

You'd think, after the Chretien mess, that they would have learned something about what Canadians want. You'd think they would have just sat back, licked their wounds and worked on cleaning up their own crap.

But... nope. Not when there's public money just sitting there, waiting to be spent on dinners, plane rides, parties, vote subsidies, sponsorship grants, ad agency payoffs, hookers and blow... you know, all those things that are really important to Canadians, and good for rebuilding the economy.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

The way the Libs are going about this it's nothing more than a coronation. There's nothing democratic about it all. It's just a king-making exercise by the Liberal elite. They'd better be pulling out of this coalition since their new leader will have no legitimacy whatsoever, whoever it turns out to be.

Wouldn't Dion being replaced make that signed coalition agreement between the three amigos null and void anyway? In it Dion was supposedly cited as the PM under the signed and witnessed coalition agreement. Doesn't changing who would serve as PM change the agreement in such a fundamental and substantial manner that the whole agreement should become void? Or are the legal documents these guys sign as meaningless as their oaths?

This is all a farce.

From what I can gather and have read between the lines, Ignatieff wants nothing to do with the coalition.
Effectively, the coalition will be dead. Officially maybe not, as he still wants to be able to use it as a threat against the Conservatives in order to get what he wants in the budget. The upcoming budget will have to pretty be much a disaster before he pulls the coalition rabbit out of the hat.

Igantieff wants to become PM for sure.... but not by getting the position by going through the back door. He'll take his chances on a general election... not a parliamentary coup.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

At the same time, the way the minority leader tried to introduce extreme partisan legislation thinking that the opposition parties would be forced to pass it, was also something you would expect from a dictator.

They were all trying to exercise more poweer than they ought to.

Whatever. They tried to pass something that the majority of Canadians want. It also would have affected them worse than any other party (since they had more votes than any other party).

Yeah, I know. The PCs are better at raising money on their own, without taxpayer subsidies, than the other two national parties. Clearly, this makes them evil and they must be punished for it.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

Wouldn't Dion being replaced make that signed coalition agreement between the three amigos null and void anyway? In it Dion was supposedly cited as the PM under the signed and witnessed coalition agreement. Doesn't changing who would serve as PM change the agreement in such a fundamental and substantial manner that the whole agreement should become void? Or are the legal documents these guys sign as meaningless as their oaths?

I'm assuming you haven't read the coalition accord? It doesn't mention Dion by name as leader, except at signatory. What it does say is that, should the coalition come to power, the Prime Minister will be the leader of the Liberal Party. It doesn't address who this leader is, or how he is picked. It doesn't include a time-table for the Liberals naming a replacement for Dion. The Liberals changing their leader doesn't even come close to being any sort of violation of the accord.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Whatever. They tried to pass something that the majority of Canadians want. It also would have affected them worse than any other party (since they had more votes than any other party).

Yeah, I know. The PCs are better at raising money on their own, without taxpayer subsidies, than the other two national parties. Clearly, this makes them evil and they must be punished for it.

This was definitely a miscalculation on Harpers part.... but then again they don't call politics a BLOOD SPORT for nothing.

I wonder if he knew about the Layton/Duceppe agreement when he did this? If he did, it was a HUGE miscalculation because he basically forced the Liberals to take part in a coup plan that was ready to be implemented.

I truly believe that if there hadn't been an existing plan/agreement between the NDP and the Separtists, Harpers plan would have succeeded. The Liberals (Dion) wouldn't have had a clue on what to do about it and would have sat on their hands as usual.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by octothorp

I'm assuming you haven't read the coalition accord? It doesn't mention Dion by name as leader, except at signatory. What it does say is that, should the coalition come to power, the Prime Minister will be the leader of the Liberal Party. It doesn't address who this leader is, or how he is picked. It doesn't include a time-table for the Liberals naming a replacement for Dion. The Liberals changing their leader doesn't even come close to being any sort of violation of the accord.

You're right, I haven't read it. It sounds like you have though ... can you direct me to where I can find a copy of it to read?

[CaptainCrunch]

Probably the smart move for the Liberals would be to work with and support the Cons on the budget. If this budget comes out and its viewed as positive by Canadians and the coalition votes it down and triggers an election (And it will be an election, I don't think that the GG will appoint the coalition in its current state right now since it would extend the budget way out, and they don't really have a specific plan beyond calling meetings) then it won't matter if the Fonz would be the deputy Liberal Leaders and Angelina Jolie was the Liberal leader, the NDP and Liberals will get squashed in an election.

Ignatieff would be better off working with the Cons, supporting the budget fracturing the coalition and concentrating on retrenching the Liberals and fund raising like crazy for an election in a year or two.

The optics would be better for him come election time.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

At the same time, the way the minority leader tried to introduce extreme partisan legislation thinking that the opposition parties would be forced to pass it, was also something you would expect from a dictator.

They were all trying to exercise more poweer than they ought to.

You'll get no disagreement from me on that. I'm not really a Harper supporter as much as I'm opposed to what i see as an untenable coalition with an avowed separatist motivated out of a greed for power. Harper is merely the lesser of two evils to me.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by octothorp

I'm assuming you haven't read the coalition accord? It doesn't mention Dion by name as leader, except at signatory. What it does say is that, should the coalition come to power, the Prime Minister will be the leader of the Liberal Party. It doesn't address who this leader is, or how he is picked. It doesn't include a time-table for the Liberals naming a replacement for Dion. The Liberals changing their leader doesn't even come close to being any sort of violation of the accord.

You are right... but I believe the coalition is still dead, if Ignatieff becomes the new Liberal leader, because I don't think Ignatieff has the will or desire to continue. The only hope for the NDP and separatists is if Rae becomes the new leader...