Coalition Deal To Topple Minority Tory Govt- [Update Parliament Prorogued until Jan]

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

Her power is not discretionary. She acts on the advice of the PM. What would've been shocking and unprecedented would be if she were to deny his request for a prorogue

Her power is discretionary. If the PM tries anything far out of the ordinary, you'd see her act on her own will.
For the most part, yes, she will do as asked, but is by no means bound to.

[Bertuzzied]

I want to know what Rob Anders thinks of this! How much longer is Harper going to keep him muzzled?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

You're right.

We can agree that the coalition's ascension would not be democratic, as people did not elect the coalition, and may have voted the way did on the grounds that they would never coalesce.

Just curious, but is that how it is done in other countries where coalitions are the norm? It's hard to imagine that it is as any party that openly campaigns for a coalition is pretty much admitting that they don't think they can win a majority. It seems like a self-defeating strategy.

As mentioned previously in this thread, people don't elect governments; they elect parliaments, and the parliament we elect chooses how to form the government. A government led by a minority party is no more or less democratic than one led by a coalition. Unless the argument is simply that the leaders were not forthcoming about it before the election, in which case I don't think there has ever been a democratically eleced leader ever.

[Jade]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

I want to know what Rob Anders thinks of this! How much longer is Harper going to keep him muzzled?

Eh, I'm sure lots of people are willing to help. I volunteer. I mean, how much trouble can he really be, provided you keep him bound and gagged?

Really though, that's the one thing that can really hurt the conservatives here. There are a few members in that party that are nothing but dead weight. If they can't be kept in check, it will really hurt the conservatives.

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Just curious, but is that how it is done in other countries where coalitions are the norm? It's hard to imagine that it is as any party that openly campaigns for a coalition is pretty much admitting that they don't think they can win a majority. It seems like a self-defeating strategy.

As mentioned previously in this thread, people don't elect governments; they elect parliaments, and the parliament we elect chooses how to form the government. A government led by a minority party is no more or less democratic than one led by a coalition. Unless the argument is simply that the leaders were not forthcoming about it before the election, in which case I don't think there has ever been a democratically eleced leader ever.

Agreed, the perceived democraticness of the coalition was actually irrelevant. To me it's a case of making the rules work for group A, in light of the fact that Group B doesn't hold a majority.

[Jade]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Just curious, but is that how it is done in other countries where coalitions are the norm? It's hard to imagine that it is as any party that openly campaigns for a coalition is pretty much admitting that they don't think they can win a majority. It seems like a self-defeating strategy.

As mentioned previously in this thread, people don't elect governments; they elect parliaments, and the parliament we elect chooses how to form the government. A government led by a minority party is no more or less democratic than one led by a coalition. Unless the argument is simply that the leaders were not forthcoming about it before the election, in which case I don't think there has ever been a democratically eleced leader ever.

The only one I can speak for is Turkey, as I have a co-worker from there. Apparently for them, coalitions are the norm, due to the number of political parties. While their system works essentially the same as ours (elect someone in a riding, party with most elected members forms the government), the major difference is that the government is not defeated by being voted against. If something is voted down, it just doesn't happen. Under no circumstances can the party with the most seats be overthrown by the rest of parliment. If the party leading can't get anything passed over time (ie. unwilling to cooperate) there will be an early election. It usually takes at least a year for this to happen though. My co-worker was actually quite taken aback that our system would allow the minority parties to band together to form the government (although she might have still been recovering from the CTV do-over interview with Dion).

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Jade

Yup, Layton has finally seen the light that canadians will never vote for an NDP government, so he found another way to push his way in. Unfortunately the liberal leadership was weak enough that they needed this little ego boost too, and jumped on board. The liberals really need to hope the next leader is a lot stronger than Dion.

I think it's pretty much a given that the next Liberal leader will be stronger than Stephane. I'm not sure where they could dredge up someone weaker from.

I laughed when the Liberals chose Dion as leader, thinking that he's such a putz that he'd lead the Liberals to political armageddon ... little did I know that he'd lead the entire nation there. There's a good lesson in involved here about being careful what you wish for I guess.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by Jade

Eh, I'm sure lots of people are willing to help. I volunteer. I mean, how much trouble can he really be, provided you keep him bound and gagged?

Really though, that's the one thing that can really hurt the conservatives here. There are a few members in that party that are nothing but dead weight. If they can't be kept in check, it will really hurt the conservatives.

Can we bound and gag him but not pay him? hehe

I've voted Liberal every Federal election except for this past one. Dion was the worst choice for Liberal leader from the start. I would have voted Conservative if Anders was not my MP. I just ended up not voting.

Until Harper dumps purges his party of these dead weights he will never receive his majority govt.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Just curious, but is that how it is done in other countries where coalitions are the norm? It's hard to imagine that it is as any party that openly campaigns for a coalition is pretty much admitting that they don't think they can win a majority. It seems like a self-defeating strategy.

As mentioned previously in this thread, people don't elect governments; they elect parliaments, and the parliament we elect chooses how to form the government. A government led by a minority party is no more or less democratic than one led by a coalition. Unless the argument is simply that the leaders were not forthcoming about it before the election, in which case I don't think there has ever been a democratically eleced leader ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-party

A two-party system requires voters to align themselves in large blocs, sometimes so large that they cannot agree on any overarching principles. Along this line of thought, some theories argue that this allows centrists to gain control. On the other hand, if there are multiple major parties, each with less than a majority of the vote, the parties are forced to work together to form working governments. This also promotes a form of centrism.

Canada is an example of where there may be a multi-party system but that only two parties have formed government. Germany, India, France, and Israel are examples of nations that have used a multi-party system effectively in their democracies (though in each case there are two parties larger than all others, even though most of the time no party has a parliamentary majority by itself). In these nations, multiple political parties have often formed coalitions for the purpose of developing power blocs for governing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_government

Countries which often operate with coalition cabinets include: the Nordic countries, the Benelux countries, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Turkey, Israel, Pakistan and India. Switzerland has been ruled by a loose coalition of the four strongest parties in parliament since 1959, called the "Magic Formula".

[Bobblehead]

All three opposition leaders said they still intend to bring down the government. Mr. Dion said only a "monumental change" on Mr. Harper's part would alter that.

Harper: What are the chances of a leader like you and a leader like me... ending up together?
Dion: Well, that's pretty difficult to say.
Harper: Hit me with it! I've come a long way to see you, Dion. The least you can do is level with me. What are my chances?
Dion: Not good.
Harper: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
Dion: I'd say more like one out of a million.
[pause]
Harper: So you're telling me there's a chance.

[Jason14h]

I want to know what Rob Anders thinks of this! How much longer is Harper going to keep him muzzled?

Doubt he even knows anything is going on

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Just curious, but is that how it is done in other countries where coalitions are the norm? It's hard to imagine that it is as any party that openly campaigns for a coalition is pretty much admitting that they don't think they can win a majority. It seems like a self-defeating strategy.

As mentioned previously in this thread, people don't elect governments; they elect parliaments, and the parliament we elect chooses how to form the government. A government led by a minority party is no more or less democratic than one led by a coalition. Unless the argument is simply that the leaders were not forthcoming about it before the election, in which case I don't think there has ever been a democratically eleced leader ever.

Well, the cheap answer is that political culture in Canada is a little different than in Europe. In Europe, it is common knowledge that parties have to coalesce, and they have certain "buddies" that they ally with. It is also established in precedence that "grand coalitions" between the two largest parties are encouraged. See: Germany: Merkel CDU/CSU-SDP Coalition. It is also incumbent on the party that wins to form a coalition to help them govern as a majority. Not the also-rans to overthrow the plurality. That typically leads to instability and a swift return to the polls.

Since we're used to Majority Governments, and we're used to seeing the US majority system and assume whoever gets the most votes is the government (until they fail and we get to vote for them again), we don't expect our parties to coalesce, as they were not voted in to do so.

For example, if the Liberals had made it clear that an NDP coalition was a real possibility, the odds are good the Blue Liberals would be scared into voting CPC.

There's a distinction between what is legal to do, and what is acceptable to do.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

I think it's pretty much a given that the next Liberal leader will be stronger than Stephane. I'm not sure where they could dredge up someone weaker from.

I laughed when the Liberals chose Dion as leader, thinking that he's such a putz that he'd lead the Liberals to political armageddon ... little did I know that he'd lead the entire nation there. There's a good lesson in involved here about being careful what you wish for I guess.

I dont' know. You could have the 2 frontrunners split the vote again and the 3rd best candidate come up the middle.

Why the F is Stelmach still in charge here?

[Jade]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

I've voted Liberal every Federal election except for this past one. Dion was the worst choice for Liberal leader from the start. I would have voted Conservative if Anders was not my MP. I just ended up not voting.

Until Harper dumps purges his party of these dead weights he will never receive his majority govt.

I suffered from the same problem. I voted green up until this election, but Elizabeth May just really rubbed me the wrong way during this campaign, so I voted for the independent running the in riding. A trained monkey would get more conservative votes in that riding than Anders does.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

I want to know what Rob Anders thinks of this! How much longer is Harper going to keep him muzzled?

He's probably devising the best way to refer to Obama as Osama and call him a Muslim terrorist. I think that's about the only thing he's good for.

[old-fart]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Totally worthless. But I thought that before this crisis.

The Queen has made it clear she doesn't want her representatives acting contrary to the PM. Which is probably the correct move. PMs are publicly accountable, GGs and HMTQ are not... at least, not unless they were abolished.

They are essentially a rubber stamp, and a redundant one at that.

Exactly correct. If Harper had asked for a dissolution and election today, he would have gotten it. If, after bringing in a budget, the opposition votes it down and continues this charade of having a coalition in waiting, Harper will assuredly ask for a dissolution and election, and he will assuredly get it.

There are now only two possible outcomes: either Harper comes up with a budget that can be supported, with or without the help of the other parties, or we go to an election in March.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

I dont' know. You could have the 2 frontrunners split the vote again and the 3rd best candidate come up the middle.

Why the F is Stelmach still in charge here?

Bob Rae did it in Ontario, I'm sure he'll try to do it again.

[Jade]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

I dont' know. You could have the 2 frontrunners split the vote again and the 3rd best candidate come up the middle.

Why the F is Stelmach still in charge here?

Isn't that how Dion got in? Split the Ignatieff and Rae supporters? Yeah, I think alberta has showed that is absolutely not the way to get a leader.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Doubt he even knows anything is going on

Holy F. The politician on the milk carton speaks! He is alive!

, while Calgary West Tory MP Rob Anders argued the opposition parties were determined to bring down the government."The sabotage was in effect," Anders said. "Trying to pull a coup d'etat, in a sense, I don't think will bode well for them."

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...7-c07019797849

ummm hahahaha. i think i posted exactly the same article 2 days ago. It is kind of easy to overlook Anders.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by Jade

Isn't that how Dion got in? Split the Ignatieff and Rae supporters? Yeah, I think alberta has showed that is absolutely not the way to get a leader.

Yup! That is like John Edwards becoming the Democratic nominee in the US because Clinton and Obama split the vote. haha.

Is this broken? Are the Conservative leaders elected the same way?

I cannot believe Dinning didn't say F this losing to a farmer and then jumping to the Liberal party. He would have been our next Premier.