Coalition Deal To Topple Minority Tory Govt- [Update Parliament Prorogued until Jan]

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Unless Harper starts showing a little more statesmanship, I'm starting to think he doesn't stand a chance to recover from his blunders.

Even though I believe he is probably the best man for the job at this period of time, I think he is going to have to admit and learn from his mistakes.
l

Don't know how Harper can ever get quebec back.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

You know, it's funny. You talk about intelligence, yet you can't discuss this issue without throwing personal insults at other posters. Who do you think looks more intelligent, the 95% of the people posting in support or non-support of the issues while acting like adults, or you, who has to portray such an extreme and childish act by insulting people?

I agree it wasn't fair for Fanin80 to say that to you.

However, his point is valid. Canada, like it or not, is a minor global player, but despite that, has the exteme benefit of having its financial house in order.

This means we don't have to rush to save any essential sectors, or protect mortgages... which is what the US, EU and Japan have had to do.

We still have a serious problem as a commodity based nation. If our market isn't buying, we're not producing. So, the question is what to do?

The simple answer is make a big deal and spend a lot of money relatively aimlessly, as the Lib/NDP/Bloc would have us do. But if our markets aren't buying (US/EU/Japan/China), we're still not producing, or if our economic partners (especially the US) go in a different direction, our stimulus is useless... so its essentially pissing in the wind.

The more complicated answer is patience, consultation and planning. Can the auto sector be saved? Maybe. But I would say the CAW has to start acting like the UAW, or the Big 3 pull out of Canada. Regardless of funding. Can forestry be saved? Not unless the US starts building again. No amount of money can help that. Oil/Gas/Hydro/Coal? They'll be fine if they're not hampered by kneejerk policy.

Talk to the US, the EU, the provinces, the unions, industry leaders, yes, even the opposition, and hammer out policy that can actually be effective.

[Ford Prefect]

We're screwed. With the partisan rhetoric about to be cranked up on all sides of this debate, we could well be gripped by a unity crisis the likes of which this country has never seen before. Who knows whether the economy will even been the number one issue when parliament reconvenes in January.

I've been reflecting on the old saying that voters get the government they deserve. Wow ... what did we do to deserve this?

[troutman]

mmmmm, parogues

[malcolmk14]

I just hope to god we end up at the polls in early 2009, Harper takes a majority, and passes every single damn piece of legislation he wants to.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It's this thinking that makes Canada a second rate country on the global stage - ie. wait to see what the U.S. does. We don't always have to be their puppy and once in a while we need to take a proactive approach to our own destiny.

Websters: [2pro- + reactive] : acting in anticipation of future problems, needs, or changes

Proactive doesn't mean overreact.

Proactive doesn't mean "MUST DO SOMETHING!!!"

You're a smart guy. I'm sure you know this.

Proactive means evaluating of where the problems are or could be and seeing what you can affect, what you can't, and where you don't need to. As others have said, there is only so much that can be done by Canadians about the US Automakers. Wasn't there also a huge push to bail out the Canadian banks a while back? Glad the government didn't step into that - it wasn't needed.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I thought it was the Canadian union of autoworkers that told the automakers to look elsewhere. The UAW just agreed to a massive multi billion dollar restructuring of their collective bargining agreement to help the Automakers in their quest for Government money.

Of course the CAW was so brazen. They thought their bosom buddies, the NDP, would be forming government and protecting their right to be overpaid despite industry fundamentals not supporting that level of compensation/pension/benefits.

Now they may have to negotiate.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Something like that shouldn't matter to any reasonable preson. Harper had all day to make his video and likely took every measure he could to make it look nice. Dion and Layton had to wait to hear what Harper was going to say before they could make a rebuttle.

This is completely false. Dion had all day to make his video. He didn't have to wait till Harper aired his before he could make his... and in fact this is exactly what he did (didn't wait that is). Anybody with half a brain new exactly what Harper was going to say in his speech.... He said exactly what he's been saying all along.
The fact is that Dion is just incompetant.

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I agree that Harper is a better public speaker, but he isn't that great either. Anyone who judges them on anything but their message is just being petty.

Dion is indecisive, speaks English poorly, and his message and ideas are difficult to understand. He is not what Canada needs for a leader.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

You know, it's funny. You talk about intelligence, yet you can't discuss this issue without throwing personal insults at other posters. Who do you think looks more intelligent, the 95% of the people posting in support or non-support of the issues while acting like adults, or you, who has to portray such an extreme and childish act by insulting people?

You're right. My inclusion of the word "intelligence" in the opening statement of my post was not necessary.

Like I've already stated in this thread, and proven in numerous posts during my 2+ years here... I'm not exactly a rocket surgeon, myself.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

And it's this kind of thinking that makes intelligent people scratch their heads.

Whether your eyes are capable of seeing it or not, it doesn't change the simple fact that Canada's economy IS tied to the US's economy. Especially in the auto industry.

The very notion that the Liberals and Socialists are prepared to throw $30 billion dollars at our auto industry (especially when they're all just US companies anyway), without waiting to see if the US is going to do the same, scares the bajeebas out of me.

Extreme example: What happens if the Libs and Russians get to throw that $30 billion dollars at Ford Canada, et al... and in January, Obama announces that all US auto makers are to pull the plugs on their international plants and move all those jobs back into the USA? What auto industry will we have then? What benefit will we get from that $30 billion knee-jerk reaction?

Or what if Automakers pull out of Canada because the US was prepared to act now and Canada didn't have anyone available to work with?

What if .....

You can spin the "What if?" wheel all day long to suit whatever agenda you are pushing. There is no point to that.

You are absolutely right in believing the actions the Americans take can easily override any actions we do. But we should have someone in place to work together and make sure actions like that don't happen. That is one of the reasons there was a G20 meeting - to try and prevent actions that would be counterproductive and ultimately useless.

Coordination is the key, but it would be nice if we had someone the US (or any other country, or the EU) could coordinate with.

I would hope that there are sensible people in Ottawa keeping in the international loop, both from the CPC and coalition sides. They can't think the rest of the world will wait for Canada to get this sorted out.

But I'm sure I will be disappointed in this hope, too.

[LChoy]

I agree
While I agree some measure if needed to combat the economic crisis, the coalition's idea is too knee jerk. Let's talk to the States and see what they are doing. Talk to Mexico and Asia, our other major trading partners. Realisitically, do you see the big 3 actually surviving? If 2 of the 3 are going to go, then structure the package to help with the job losses and retraining rather than giving them a bunch of money to delay the inevitable. At least wait for the budget before the coalition decides to vote down the government. It use to be that the budget is announced, the opposition grumbles, and amendments are made and compromises are put in and the budget are passed.
For the coalition to try to take power now, esp if the party subsitities part of it have been removed, just shows that they are power hungry and they aren't the ones willinging to compromise

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Or what if Automakers pull out of Canada because the US was prepared to act now and Canada didn't have anyone available to work with?

...

You are absolutely right in believing the actions the Americans take can easily override any actions we do. But we should have someone in place to work together and make sure actions like that don't happen. That is one of the reasons there was a G20 meeting - to try and prevent actions that would be counterproductive and ultimately useless.

So.. since we have the discussions happening (see G20, see Ontario Government/Auto Industry, etc), and if those discussions go no where because they're powerless to implement anything, who's fault is that?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

We're screwed. With the partisan rhetoric about to be cranked up on all sides of this debate, we could well be gripped by a unity crisis the likes of which this country has never seen before. Who knows whether the economy will even been the number one issue when parliament reconvenes in January.

I've been reflecting on the old saying that voters get the government they deserve. Wow ... what did we do to deserve this?

Ummm we voted for a party like the NDP? We do deserve this.
Consecutive minority government always leads to an eventual showdown.

[MarchHare]

Well, at least the Dion-Layton alliance isn't getting power (at least for now); for that I'm relieved.

However, if the situation had been reversed and a minority Liberal government suspended parliament to avoid defeat in a confidence vote, most of the posters in this thread would be screaming bloody murder. I doubt many of you will admit it, but you know it's true.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Or what if Automakers pull out of Canada because the US was prepared to act now and Canada didn't have anyone available to work with?

What if .....

You can spin the "What if?" wheel all day long to suit whatever agenda you are pushing. There is no point to that.

You are absolutely right in believing the actions the Americans take can easily override any actions we do. But we should have someone in place to work together and make sure actions like that don't happen. That is one of the reasons there was a G20 meeting - to try and prevent actions that would be counterproductive and ultimately useless.

Coordination is the key, but it would be nice if we had someone the US (or any other country, or the EU) could coordinate with.

I would hope that there are sensible people in Ottawa keeping in the international loop, both from the CPC and coalition sides. They can't think the rest of the world will wait for Canada to get this sorted out.

But I'm sure I will be disappointed in this hope, too.

Of course there are a million what ifs. Anything can happen at any time. Are the Liberals and Socialists more prepared to deal with any of those what ifs than the recently-elected Conservatives are? I haven't seen any proof of that.

Here's another "what if:" What if everyone waited to see what's in the actual budget when it's announced, instead of trying to overthrow a Government that has not yet even had a chance to govern?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Well, at least the Dion-Layton alliance isn't getting power (at least for now); for that I'm relieved.

However, if the situation had been reversed and a minority Liberal government suspended parliament to avoid defeat in a confidence vote, most of the posters in this thread would be screaming bloody murder. I doubt many of you will admit it, but you know it's true.

I'd be screaming bloddy murder if it was the Conservatives forming a coalition withe the Bloc

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Rerun

This is completely false. Dion had all day to make his video. He didn't have to wait till Harper aired his before he could make his... and in fact this is exactly what he did (didn't wait that is). Anybody with half a brain new exactly what Harper was going to say in his speech.... He said exactly what he's been saying all along.
The fact is that Dion is just incompetant.
.

Yeah, that was pointed out, but I stand by my statement that I think the quality of the recording should not be a concern.

To be fair to Harper, he is often blamed for being to robotic and sounding too rehearsed and I think that is irrelevant too. The only thing I think should matter is if you find the message to be sincere and if you agree with it. For me, I find that both Harper and Dion are only 50/50. I find Harper sincere, but I don't agree with his stance. For Dion (or rather the Liberals at this time), I don't think he is sincere in his intentions, but I think he has some good points. By not sincere in his intentions, I mean that I think he could achieve practically the same thing as a strong opposition leader as he could as leader of a coalition. Sure, Harper came out with some very strong partisanship in parliament when he really had no business to as the economic situation should be the #1 issue, and he is only leading a minority, but I think the slap on the wrist from the rest of parliament should have been good enough. An opposition coalition would probably be just as effective.

I guess that is the thing that bugs me about the Liberals even though I agree with some of what they are saying. They seem to think that being the opposition is a "loser" position, when really, the opposition leader has the second most important job in the country and Dion was chosen for that job yet the first chance he has to leave that spot, he does...

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Well, at least the Dion-Layton alliance isn't getting power (at least for now); for that I'm relieved.

However, if the situation had been reversed and a minority Liberal government suspended parliament to avoid defeat in a confidence vote, most of the posters in this thread would be screaming bloody murder. I doubt many of you will admit it, but you know it's true.

If the Liberals had 143 seats and the Conservatives only had 77 and needed Socialist/Separatist support in order to wrest power away from a Liberal Government that was just elected 6 weeks ago... before that Government has even been able to announce it's budget...

I would absolutely be just as livid. I've already stated in this thread, that I don't have any historical party affiliations. Every election, I vote for who I think would be the best party to lead our country (and the best Leader to lead our country). I voted Chretien in his first election. I voted Harper in both of his elections. If there's an election next month, I'll be voting Harper again.

As for the future? Who knows. About the only thing I can possibly guarantee is I will not be voting for a Separatist or a Socialist party.

[GreatWhiteEbola]

It was a fata...

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteEbola

I hope this isn't a FATA.

It is.