Coalition Deal To Topple Minority Tory Govt- [Update Parliament Prorogued until Jan]

[flamesfever]

The weaknesses in the Coalition as I see it are:

1. Its existance depends on a party that stands for Quebec separation

2. Dion as Prime Minister - even if for only half year

3. A socialistic or left leaning approach to solving the economic crisis

4. The exceptionally low representation in Western Canada

Once again the West are going to feel disenfranchised. And IMO the economic engine that has provided the major stimulus for Canada's economic success during the past number of years is going to be negatively affected.

In no way is the Coalition good for Canada. Please GG, call another election if the Conservatives receive a vote of non confidence.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Unfortunately a 1.3 billion dollar bribe is not illegal, however if this money comes out of the taxpayers money then these jokers need to be tossed out of power, and the Liberal and NDP parties need to be reduced to 2 seats each. As a taxpayer this puts me into a rage, the Liberal's and NDP are subverting our government and bribing separatists with our money.

Before the GG makes her decision, this needs to be investigated by the Auditor General, and if its true then GG has to tell the coalition scumbags to f off and call an election.

I'm pissed.

How did you feel about the $2.3 billion in extra spending for Quebec in the 2007 Conservative budget? It was put there to secure the Bloc's support of their budget and to curry favor among Quebec voters. In the end, the Liberals and NDP voted against it and it was only through the Bloc's support that their budget passed. In a sense, the Conservatives secured passage of their budget by spending taxpayers' money on Quebec.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Flame On

Well if I take your example it's just parroting the word in almost everyone of your posts over the course of this thread.
But:A sudden appropriation of leadership or power.

Oy vay.

OK...IF 15 individuals decide to sit as independants...what part of that is a "sudden appropriation of power"? And what power is it they are appropriating?

Now...if they cross the floor and sit as Conservatives, then yes you have half an argument. Its a tactic I too implicitly hate as part of Parliamentary procedure, but alas it is completely legal though I beleive immoral.

As you can see nowhere in that description is it contigent upon getting into bed with anyone. Getting into bed with people isn't what makes something a coup

Yes it is...as evidenced by what we have seen the last 5 days. Selling out your basic principles and going back against what was campaigned against just 7 weeks ago to garner power of a country is, at least in my opinion, getting into bed with someone.

I think some people have suggesed that what was proposed isn't in the spirit of democracy, but illegal?

Nobody has...but if they did it has been said repeatedly in this thread and the other one that it is not illegal. repugnant, not in the spirit of democracy, abhorrent? yes...illegal? No.

My point is that if suddenly there's a reversal of fortune for the Harper government, somethign that was specifically voted for by the populace, I wonder if there will be the same outrage about it.

Name me one single person in the country of Canada that voted for a Bloc/Lib/NDP coalition. One.

In fact...you just beat your own argument...Harper was the one voted as PM, as we all know.

But there's specifically been a lot of outrage about that here. That what was voted for isn't going to happen so would the converse be true?

The outrage by Conservatives, Liberals, and NDP supporters, on this very board no less, is that none of them voted for the Libs and NDP to get into bed with seperatists in an effort to usurp power from the democratically elected Conservatives who were given a mandate from the country to run it. Period. End of story.

What part of this are you not getting?

[metallicat]

Bourque.org/notes

Further to what I posted last night, the rumour has 15 MPs willin to sit as Independents, including Ken Drydan, and two Tories apparently willin to sit as Independents as well.

You guys ready for another fun day?

[transplant99]

if there was any question that this coalition was anything but a power grab, this stuff should put it to rest. Dion/Layton announced an economic panel to advise them in the face of the "Conservatives having no plan"...right?

It was news to at least 3 of the 4 named as advisors.

The Liberal-led coalition ran into its first economic obstacle last night, as two prominent Bay Street advisers said they do not plan to assume so-called "wise men" roles.

Frank McKenna and John Manley - both former Liberal cabinet ministers who now work on Bay Street - indicated they do not intend to be part of an economic advisory panel the Liberals and NDP said would instill business confidence in a coalition government.

Mr. Martin and Mr. Romanow could not be reached for comment last night. Mr. Romanow's wife indicated that her husband was also surprised by a report that he'd be among the panel, saying "there was a little bit of a question mark" about where the information came from.

Now we move on to this beauty. It was said repeatedly at the press conference that the reason that they were taking this unprecedented move was because the Conservatives showed no plan and had to be removed because something needed to be done NOW. Seems like that very reason is why the coalition are not announcing the plan....because they dont have one.

In Ottawa, the coalition's leaders continued to steer clear of specifics on their economic plan, saying it would be irresponsible to commit to a dollar figure before getting a look at the government's books.

"The amount we could afford to commit would be different with a balanced budget than if we have a $10-billion deficit," Liberal John McCallum, a former chief economist with the Royal Bank of Canada, said in an interview. "The prudent thing to do before committing to a dollar figure is to see where we're starting from. We can't do that until we take government."

So they need to see the books before they can make a decision....but they made a decision on the Conservatives before they saw the books?

Awesome.

Oh and it could be another bumpy day on the TSX.

The uncertainty over the coalition's economic program raised concern in the business community, where several sectors - including automobiles, forestry and banking - await crucial policy decisions from Ottawa.

The Canadian Chamber of Commerce last night issued a scathing attack on all parties for not making the economy a greater priority.

"With so much at stake, all members of Parliament must set partisan manoeuvring aside and focus instead on measures to bolster investor and consumer confidence and restore economic growth," the business group, with 175,000 members, said in a statement.

Unreal.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../TPStory/Front

[the_only_turek_fan]

http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/ques...-2/#clip117957

[ernie]

"An impressive victory for Duceppe and the Bloc ... we've made immense gains ... the deal we've made Dion sign will make separatists smile ... Quebec sovereignty is once again the order of the day !" -Jacques Parizeau

Might just be me but I'm thinking that's not going to go over well in the other provinces and for any federalists in quebec.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

Bourque.org/notes

Further to what I posted last night, the rumour has 15 MPs willin to sit as Independents, including Ken Drydan, and two Tories apparently willin to sit as Independents as well.

You guys ready for another fun day?

More rumours from them...Ignatieff re-thinking the coalition.

Senior Ignatieff insiders are tantalizingly whispering to Bourque that the Toronto MP is having grave doubts about supporting the shocking Dion coalition bid, now labelled by many as the "Separatist Coalition", given the defining support it has from both the BQ's Gilles Duceppe and former PQ Premier Jacques Parizeau.

One longtime senior Ignatieff backer, under condition of anonymity, confided that "Michael is in a tenuous situation and he is feeling a lot of heat from caucus colleagues and constituents alike. Frankly, we think we got snookered by Bob Rae on this one".



It nets out to this, according to this longtime Liberal and echoed by many other key backroom players: ordinary Liberals across the country, the card-carrying bbq-ing door-knocking envelope-stuffing phone-banking kind who make up the backbone of the party and who would need to be counted on to support his leadership aspirations, are vehemently rejecting the Dion argument that a deal with the separatist Bloc Quebecois is in the best interests of Canada.

http://www.bourque.org/notes.html

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/ques...-2/#clip117957

This is the first time I'm watching Question Period from yesterday. Harper's first comment is just plain awesome.

[Resolute 14]

Lite96 had Rod Love on this morning, and he mentioned that he's heard the ultimate decision on what to do will not come from the GG, but from the Queen. He said that what we are facing is something that has never occurred in 700 years of British Parliamentary history: That the GG (Queen) will be asked to allow a coalition that requires the support of a party who's goal is to break up the country. Basically, this coup doesn't only have massive ramifications for Canada, but that it will impact the entire Commonwealth.

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Lite96 had Rod Love on this morning, and he mentioned that he's heard the ultimate decision on what to do will not come from the GG, but from the Queen. He said that what we are facing is something that has never occurred in 700 years of British Parliamentary history: That the GG (Queen) will be asked to allow a coalition that requires the support of a party who's goal is to break up the country. Basically, this coup doesn't only have massive ramifications for Canada, but that it will impact the entire Commonwealth.

That is massive. He has heard this from whom though?

[Ronald Pagan]

I've stated all along that there were long odds on this happening. The perceived or real erosion of Liberal support is starting to hammer nails.

Eitherway, should be an interesting parliament. Harper has been significantly weakened.

[metallicat]

What time does Question Period go live today, anyone know? How long does it last? I assume CPAC shows it live...

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

That is massive. He has heard this from whom though?

"People"

Obviously has to be taken with a grain of salt, but it does make interesting discussion board fodder.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

I've stated all along that there were long odds on this happening. The perceived or real erosion of Liberal support is starting to hammer nails.

Eitherway, should be an interesting parliament. Harper has been significantly weakened.

Depends. If the coalition fails to usurp power, and if Liberal support erodes to the point where they simply can't afford to go back to the polls, Harper's position could well be strengthened.

Harper is only weakened if the coalition allows him to retain control, but remains unified in opposition.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

Eitherway, should be an interesting parliament. Harper has been significantly weakened.

Maybe. But it can be argued the Liberals could be weakened even more. This is something that could blow apart a party that has threatened to come apart for years now. They can no longer hold up the national unity card as a party. They've put themselves behind a leader that got blown out of the water in the national election a few short weeks ago.

In the end I'm not convinced this will weaken Harper though it depends on how everything turns out. Yesterday Harper without a doubt won the day with his performance during question period and everyone got a reminder as to why they didn't vote for Dion.

More and more will come out over the coming 48 hours of backroom deals, "bribes" to Quebec (hell the PQ and Bloc are bragging!), that the Bloc really does hold the power, Senate promises, cabinet minister deliberations by a coalition that hasn't even been granted power, a stimulus package that doesn't exist etc etc. A lot of cart before the horse stuff and a lot of information that completely destroys the foundation of why the coalition said they were doing this. There is no question that as each hour passes the media is making this look more and more like the power grab it is and that the power grab has no substance behind it. I think that is only going to get worse over the remainder week and come the weekend the coalition will start to really fall apart as Ignatieff and the half of the liberal MPs that support him step away.

Unless Dion can somehow show he is capable of being even an interim leader. I doubt he can because it's plain as day that he just doesn't have the necessary demeanour to be that guy for a minute let alone 6 months. And honestly, Ignatieff is in a position to guarantee himself of being the leader of the liberal party in 6 months time by being the saviour that prevented Dion from allowing separatists to run the party. I don't think it's a stretch to see that happen. Ignatieff is not a red liberal...he's a blue liberal so getting into bed with the NDP has to be galling to him, and then to get into bed with separatists should be putting him over the edge even if he despises Harper. If it doesn't he is going to lose a lot of credibility and be forever tied to Dion - the guy who gave the Bloc power.

[Ronald Pagan]

It's quite a stretch to say that Harper could come out of this unscathed.

Harper will be weakened in parliament no doubt. He will have to consult with opposition more than any time before as PM. As such, the Conservative agenda will be watered down. He'll do this out of political necessity and out of pandering to public opinion. No matter how much most of the people on this board seem to applaud his actions, lobbing a hand grenade down the underpants of the opposition parties has left a very bad taste in the average Canadian's mouth. It was boorish, partisan, and highly destructive. He'll need to rebuild that trust with the electorate. As such, power sharing to some degree is an inevitability.

Harper is also weakened within his party. Of that there can be no doubt. Right now they are doing what any political party does in a time of crisis, Protect the King. After this blows over, serious questions will be asked within the party. The foundations of his power are weakened. Can he rebuild it? Sure. Will he rebuild it? Who knows.

[transplant99]

It's quite a stretch to say that Harper could come out of this unscathed.

Harper will be weakened in parliament no doubt. He will have to consult with opposition more than any time before as PM. As such, the Conservative agenda will be watered down.

Only in your Liberal fantasy world IMO.

What changes? he will still be in the exact same position he was before this whole coup was attempted...meaning he will be leading a minority government.
maybe he will feel some backlash for the ill-advised inclusion of eliminating tax-payer funding to parties...but beyond that, what has he really done? Shown will and an instinct to step up in parliament yesterday and call this what it was all along?

The ones that are gonna get cooked are Dion and Layton...they have both made it abundantly clear that they are willing to jump into bed with seperatists for the good of themselves....something I hope their constiuents hammer them on when they get a chance. Well Dion is a lame duck anyhow, so he doesn't matter, but Layton has shown his hand...and now he will have to live with it the ret of his political life. Good.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

Harper will be weakened in parliament no doubt. He will have to consult with opposition more than any time before as PM.

Only if the opposition can maintain unity.

Even you have to be capable of seeing that.

[disco_inferno]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

My short lived respect for the electorate is over: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...hub=TopStories

i love the chanting..."harper! harper! harper!"

as flames fans we should load up a bus and attend a session of parliment, could be fun.