Coalition Deal To Topple Minority Tory Govt- [Update Parliament Prorogued until Jan]

[transplant99]

Soo.... the Conservatives tried to make it work?

Dont know...niether do you...what I do know is the gang of wannabes didnt even let the budget come along to see where there was room to negotiate.

But since it has been announced the plans for the coup were rolling along way before the election was even over, what did it matter if they did try to make it work?

The whole thing is sickening.

[Jade]

Originally Posted by Slava

Thanks!

I don't mean to imply that the Liberals are altruistic here, just that they are willing to compromise, which is exactly what is taking place right now.

If they are so willing to compromise, why won't they at least try to do so with a party they have said themselves are closer policy wise?

com⋅pro⋅mise   /ˈkɒmprəˌmaɪz/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kom-pruh-mahyz] Show IPA Pronunciation
noun, verb, -mised, -mis⋅ing.
–noun a settlement of differences by mutual concessions; an agreement reached by adjustment of conflicting or opposing claims, principles, etc., by reciprocal modification of demands.


Given that the only thing the liberals seem interested in is the appearance of being in charge and they are getting that, is this really a compromise?

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

To answer your question: they all ended up sharing power, exactly as our democracy intended.

Unfortunately for Harper, he doesn't seem to have realized this, and kicked off his government as though he had total power. I'm sure he didn't anticipate these consequences, but that doesn't mean they couldn't or shouldn't have been anticipated, or that they're in any way undemocratic.

Yep, he overplayed his hand and has since backed off. Do you really think that deserves such extreme measures only 6 weeks after he won an election?

IMO, running a little willy nilly and getting called on it does not deserve something so extreme. It deserves a kick in the ass to act appropriately going forwards.

[Jade]

Originally Posted by ikaris

Soo.... the Conservatives tried to make it work?

Show me where they haven't. I haven't seen them even get the chance.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

To answer your question: they all ended up sharing power, exactly as our democracy intended.

Unfortunately for Harper, he doesn't seem to have realized this, and kicked off his government as though he had total power. I'm sure he didn't anticipate these consequences, but that doesn't mean they couldn't or shouldn't have been anticipated, or that they're in any way undemocratic.

No they didnt......neither the Cons nor the Bloc (according to the deal) have any power whatsoever.(Larf) once this coup is complete.

Yet...what did they combine for in seats?

It is completely and utterly undemocratic.

[Jade]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

To answer your question: they all ended up sharing power, exactly as our democracy intended.

Unfortunately for Harper, he doesn't seem to have realized this, and kicked off his government as though he had total power. I'm sure he didn't anticipate these consequences, but that doesn't mean they couldn't or shouldn't have been anticipated, or that they're in any way undemocratic.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part of the definition of democracy that stated if you were a liberal you didn't have to follow the voters decision. Voters chose to give the Conservatives a minority government. Liberals didn't like it and decided to jump ahead. If 'in a democracy' the liberals get power no matter who we vote for, why do we vote?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Jade

If they are so willing to compromise, why won't they at least try to do so with a party they have said themselves are closer policy wise?

com⋅pro⋅mise   /ˈkɒmprəˌmaɪz/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kom-pruh-mahyz] Show IPA Pronunciation
noun, verb, -mised, -mis⋅ing.
–noun a settlement of differences by mutual concessions; an agreement reached by adjustment of conflicting or opposing claims, principles, etc., by reciprocal modification of demands.


Given that the only thing the liberals seem interested in is the appearance of being in charge and they are getting that, is this really a compromise?

Thanks for the education! I suppose that the Conservatives are showing compromise by disregarding the thoughts of the other parties in parliament though? Its a minority government, so compromise and appeasing is a natural part of that.

The Liberals campaigned on one thing whereas the NDP campaigned on something else. Clearly the BQ campaigned on yet another policy. Coming together for a coalition is exactly what compromise is. I already stated that I'm not sure that this coalition is something that I support, so that is as far as I'm going to defend this.

Further, I laid out why Harper should be waiting for the stimulus package details rather bluntly above this. I think that as a plainly identified liberal on this board I understand compromise quite well!

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by fotze

I thought it was established that this coalition was born prior to Harper announcing the party funding thing. I could be wrong though????

These tapes that the Conservatives released show that the NDP and Bloc were planning something... The Liberals didn't join in until after the party funding thing.

[Rhettzky]

Originally Posted by Jade

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part of the definition of democracy that stated if you were a liberal you didn't have to follow the voters decision. Voters chose to give the Conservatives a minority government. Liberals didn't like it and decided to jump ahead. If 'in a democracy' the liberals get power no matter who we vote for, why do we vote?

Totally agree, and it's also not like the people who voted NDP really meant to vote for a Liberal lead minority.

I still can't understand how any of this is even possible. How would an NDP voter not be completely choked if this happens. It's like voting on Chocolate as your favorite flavour of ice cream only to have Chocolate turn around after the election and say "Tricked you!! I'm vanilla!!".

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Slava

Thanks for the education! I suppose that the Conservatives are showing compromise by disregarding the thoughts of the other parties in parliament though? Its a minority government, so compromise and appeasing is a natural part of that.

The Liberals campaigned on one thing whereas the NDP campaigned on something else. Clearly the BQ campaigned on yet another policy. Coming together for a coalition is exactly what compromise is. I already stated that I'm not sure that this coalition is something that I support, so that is as far as I'm going to defend this.

Further, I laid out why Harper should be waiting for the stimulus package details rather bluntly above this. I think that as a plainly identified liberal on this board I understand compromise quite well!

Didn't they back off of all of the controversial legislation that they tabled? That's called compromise and that's called appeasement.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

Unfortunately for Harper, he doesn't seem to have realized this, and kicked off his government as though he had total power. I'm sure he didn't anticipate these consequences, but that doesn't mean they couldn't or shouldn't have been anticipated, or that they're in any way undemocratic.

I guess I would disagree. In the last sitting of Parliament, the Liberals would often abstain from voting; giving Harper a virtual majority. This time Harper put something in place right off the bat that would get the Liberals involved; but instead of becoming a voice to be heard, they are trying to find a way to bully the system.

Yes, Harper did wake the sleeping dog. But that doesn't mean he deserves to get mauled to death.

[Jade]

Originally Posted by ikaris

These tapes that the Conservatives released show that the NDP and Bloc were planning something... The Liberals didn't join in until after the party funding thing.

Riiiiiight. The NDP and bloc planned a coalition between themselves all on their own without the liberals involved. Why then, are the liberals the ones who would technically be the government, while the Bloc isn't even offically a part of this. There's no proof either way, but logically, there was no reason to even start this without the liberals onboard.

[C_Rush]

Question:

According to the coalition, this mess is being predicated on the Conservatives introducing legislation to cancel public financial support for political parties. The Conservatives have a successful private donation plan that funds them, while the other parties are happy to suckle at the public purse teat instead doing any actual grunt work to fund themselves. How is this a bad thing, other than the other parties are too lazy to develop grassroots donation drives like the Conservatives have?

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Dont know...niether do you...what I do know is the gang of wannabes didnt even let the budget come along to see where there was room to negotiate.

I posted this before when you said this, and I'll post it again (this is for Jade too):

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/11/28/flaherty.html

[peter12]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../National/home

Mr. Harper, who was leader of the Opposition at that time, held lengthy discussions with Mr. Layton and Mr. Duceppe aimed at supplanting Paul Martin's Liberal government without an election in the fall of 2004.
Those talks did not invoke a coalition, but rather revolved around replacing the elected Liberal minority with a Conservative government led by Mr. Harper and supported by the New Democrats and Bloc on an issue-by-issue basis.

[Jagger]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

I stated this in the original thread, but I am almost certain that GG Jean will accept the coalition, and that Harper, Layton and Dion all know this. The Liberals and NDP, particularly the Liberals, are in no position to stage an election right now. They don't have the money, and I suspect the electorate would not be too kind to either party over this. I don't think they would be playing hardball like this unless they know they can grab power without having to face an election to do so.

If it's known that the GG will accept the coalition, that would also explain why Harper is backtracking on the subsidy and other issues (banning public service strikes). Harper's ego doesn't allow him to back off easily, so I'm a little surprised he's doing this, unless he knows where this is headed if it winds up in the GG's lap. It also would indicate he must know or believe this won't go to an election. I think an election would be in his favour and he wouldn't be back pedaling if he thought an election would be the outcome of it all.

Edit: Plus GG Jean is a Liberal from Quebec that Paul Martin appointed. She and her husband are/were known separatist sympathizers. If one were prone to believe in conspiracy theories, you could create a whopper out of this one.

I haven't read the entire thread but has anybody else suggested you change your signature to PANIC? That's where I'm at....

[C_Rush]

Originally Posted by Rhettzky

Totally agree, and it's also not like the people who voted NDP really meant to vote for a Liberal lead minority.

I still can't understand how any of this is even possible. How would an NDP voter not be completely choked if this happens. It's like voting on Chocolate as your favorite flavour of ice cream only to have Chocolate turn around after the election and say "Tricked you!! I'm vanilla!!".

This is essentially Jack Layton (and by extension, the NDP) throwing in the towel on actually being elected as a viable government party and seizing power through cold blooded political manipulation and power greed. It's the only way Jack Layton had any chance of ever getting his hands near the federal purse strings....

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Yep, he overplayed his hand and has since backed off. Do you really think that deserves such extreme measures only 6 weeks after he won an election?

IMO, running a little willy nilly and getting called on it does not deserve something so extreme. It deserves a kick in the ass to act appropriately going forwards.

That's my take on this too. I was amongst the most vocal here in opposition to the party funding cuts, but with that pulled back, the opposition needs to pull back too.

I'm glad the opposition is being strong and asking questions of the Conservatives, but this coalition is an over reaction under current circumstances and I can't support it, and hope they back off.
I wish we could see this minority government work, but if it can't I'd rather another election then a coalition.
If the Libs and NDP are gonna join together, do it fully and before and election, and let people vote in that government with full transperency of how they will be working together.
I hate shape-shifting and floorcrossing politics no matter who is diong it, and wish out system didn't allow it.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by peter12

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../National/home

Mr. Harper, who was leader of the Opposition at that time, held lengthy discussions with Mr. Layton and Mr. Duceppe aimed at supplanting Paul Martin's Liberal government without an election in the fall of 2004.
Those talks did not invoke a coalition, but rather revolved around replacing the elected Liberal minority with a Conservative government led by Mr. Harper and supported by the New Democrats and Bloc on an issue-by-issue basis.

They are all politicians. I'm loving how everyone is outraged by this 'coup'.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by C_Rush

This is essentially Jack Layton (and by extension, the NDP) throwing in the towel on actually being elected as a viable government party and seizing power through cold blooded political manipulation and power greed. It's the only way Jack Layton had any chance of ever getting his hands near the federal purse strings....

See you in the re-education camp. Talk like that can get you in big trouble Comrade.