Coalition Deal To Topple Minority Tory Govt- [Update Parliament Prorogued until Jan]

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Jade

And you don't think that this could have anything to do with the fact that, as has been noted by those supporting this little coup, he has a minority government? As has been mentioned, he can't put things through on his own. The conservatives will come up with their ideas, and have to work out details with other parties to get things passed. It's called compromise, something the liberals aren't interested in doing unless they are leading, whether they were elected or not.

I think that the coalition is a compromise by its very nature?

I don't know what the rationale is on the stimulus plan or why nothing has been made public, but there are a few major reasons why things like this should be under wraps:

a. the government is going to influence the markets by doing this and you can't have someone gain an unfair advantage with prior knowledge.

b. some companies will have an advantage with liquidity or cash driven into them in some way, shape or form...not an easy decision to make and not something that should be debated (as to which industries get the funds) because of the ramifications.

c. things are tumultuous in the markets to begin with and its best to make a calculated decision before you upset the apple cart. So while the stimulus is both needed and will happen it should be done prudently.

d. all of the potential consequences have to be examined. There are intended consequences, but also a lot of unintended ones to be considered. When you are dealing with an economic intervention you have to try to examine all of these before you implement a $30-$40 billion program.

If I were in Harpers position (and lets face it I would have a hard time getting a majority of anything!), I would be taking my time with this as well. Its the right thing to do.

That being said though, I would not rule out a deficit and I certainly would want the other leaders to endorse this so that we are all affected the same way politically.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by transplant99

They have?

EU discussing what their plans are:

http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited...fx5742161.html

Britain discussing what their plans are:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,...818334,00.html



You don't need to wait for a budget to simply discuss what you plan to do.

[Jade]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

What does that have to do with Harper not giving the public straight forward answers? Yes, he has to compromise with other parties, but that does not mean that he can say what his government hopes to do in the new year.

BTW, I think it's funny that you would say that the Liberals don't want to compromise considering that they are the ones (not the Conservatives) who are actively trying to form a coalition with another party. That right there, is a bigger gesture of compromise than anything the Conservative party has done lately. Is it just that they are planning to compromise with the NDP and not the Conservatives that you see as a problem?

What I said was that the liberals are only willing to compromise if they are leading. The only way this coalition works is if everyone involved gets what they want. The bloc want more money for Quebec, and for this to work will likely get it. The NDP want to throw money at the problem, and the liberals will amend their financial platform to do it. The liberals just want to be the governing party, even if it means going against all of their supposed principles to do it. Yeah, this coalition sounds like a great plan for Canada.

[LChoy]

My 2 cents:

- Bloc - The Bloc will act how they usually act in Parliament, even if they are part of the coalition. Having said that, they won't be involved in the coalition directly like having members in cabinet or even having a direct say. They will have a say in regional matter and will use their base to get the coalition to pass, and their members will vote on bill by bill basis depending how it affects their province. The Bloc is a regional party, and they usually stay out of things that affect the rest of Canada. There power would be kept in check by Liberal, NDP, and the Conservatives.
- Proposed power sharing structure (Cabinet) would be 75% Liberal, 25% NDP. Coliation will have a 30 month term
- Dion as the leader is a risk, but the opportunity is now for this coalition to work. He will step down in May, and the leadership succession is still taking place. Until that though, he is still the head of the Liberals
- I need to see the details of the economic stimulus. While I agree that autoworkers and forestry workers are dying, we can't just throw money to keep a dying industry (auto) afloat. I sincerely hope there is tangible actions to it that will reform the industry or allow the workers to move on to other sectors.
- People that are calling it a coup or wondering what's the point of the election: keep in mind, the Conservatives don't have a MAJORITY. In fact, more Canadians voted against the conservatives but because they have the most votes, they form the government. This is the risk for every minority government
- This is a Conservative PR nightmare. It was already ballsy to make the party funding a confidence motion, but to have no stimulus announcement and then have to admit they secretly taped meetings. That's like Watergate to the minds on Canadians

[Jade]

Originally Posted by Slava

That being said though, I would not rule out a deficit and I certainly would want the other leaders to endorse this so that we are all affected the same way politically.

I agree that a deficit is to be expected no matter who is in power, I just think that in order to meet with the agendas of all three parties, which are necessary for this coalition to work, there will be a lot of wasted spending which we really can't afford right now.

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by flambers

Um... that has nothing to due with a law rather thats an opinion.

Ugh.

It's a figure of speech, some levity. The analogy holds.

Basic moral of Dylan's line, if you're going to be living larger than you actually can, you better be honest about how you do it because if you aren't you'll get bit.

This is exactly what happened to Harper. He was governing like he had a majority, put out a budget amendment without consulting the other parties and inserted a item that threatened their very existence. If he had a majority, he could have gotten away with it. He didn't, he was dishonest about what that item was and now he's getting bit.

make sense everybody?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

EU discussing what their plans are:

http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited...fx5742161.html

Britain discussing what their plans are:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,...818334,00.html



You don't need to wait for a budget to simply discuss what you plan to do.

And are you stating that..the Conservatives are NOT discussing what to do and what to implement in the face of this financial crisis?

Or that they aren't telling YOU what they are doing yet, even though it may not be completely decided upon, especially with the budget still 6 weeks away. Its not like waiting a month will chnage anything.

Nevermind all that.

Once this coup is complete, will you plaese show me what the coalition plan is please? I mean they must have made it public on where they are going to spend 30 BILLION tax dollars...right?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Slava

I think that the coalition is a compromise by its very nature?

I don't know what the rationale is on the stimulus plan or why nothing has been made public, but there are a few major reasons why things like this should be under wraps:

a. the government is going to influence the markets by doing this and you can't have someone gain an unfair advantage with prior knowledge.

b. some companies will have an advantage with liquidity or cash driven into them in some way, shape or form...not an easy decision to make and not something that should be debated (as to which industries get the funds) because of the ramifications.

c. things are tumultuous in the markets to begin with and its best to make a calculated decision before you upset the apple cart. So while the stimulus is both needed and will happen it should be done prudently.

d. all of the potential consequences have to be examined. There are intended consequences, but also a lot of unintended ones to be considered. When you are dealing with an economic intervention you have to try to examine all of these before you implement a $30-$40 billion program.

If I were in Harpers position (and lets face it I would have a hard time getting a majority of anything!), I would be taking my time with this as well. Its the right thing to do.

That being said though, I would not rule out a deficit and I certainly would want the other leaders to endorse this so that we are all affected the same way politically.

Great post...except for the first line, which in my eyes is NOTHINg short of a Liberal power grab and selling their souls to do so.

[Flame On]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...marketturmoil1

Originally Posted by transplant99

He doesn't know yet...jeezuz...how could he when he is just getting the recommendations now...as well as waiting to see what happens in the USA. Like or not if Canada does anything in opposition to where they go (USA), that money is nothing but dust in the wind to prop up some overblated pension somewhere or in a job creation scheme that will end up with a bunch of people making things for a market that does not exist.

ANd no...other countries DO NOT have a plan yet. Hell other than Citibank, the uS still doesnt know who is going to get what money. They arent even sure that the auotmakers will get bailed out yet, nevermind who gets what.

Fanny and Freddy will get releif, no question, but beyond that......



Fine...but since it isnt happening...

Don't know if you're spinning, perhaps "plan" to you means implementation. But even a cursory look of plans other countries are doing shows up. I don't know about you but these look like plans to me.
Gurdian

Factoring in Britain's estimated £500bn package as well as parallel plans in parts of Scandinavia and central Europe outside the 15-country eurozone, the package could take the cost for the EU's 27 states to €2tn (£1.52tn).

1.5 Trillion sterling ain't nothing to sniff at.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Flame On

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...marketturmoil1
Don't know if you're spinning, perhaps "plan" to you means implementation. But even a cursory look of plans other countries are doing shows up. I don't know about you but these look like plans to me.
Gurdian

1.5 Trillion sterling ain't nothing to sniff at.

Britain is right in the middle of a credit crisis, we aren't. There is a difference between a huge bailout and an economic stimulus package.

[JiriHrdina]

Boy you think there is voter apathy now - wait to see what happens if this does all happen because basically it will render any vote in this last election completely useless.

The entire situation sickens me. How a man thinks he should lead a country after being rejected so soundly is astounding.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Lchoy

My 2 cents:

- Bloc - The Bloc will act how they usually act in Parliament, even if they are part of the coalition. Having said that, they won't be involved in the coalition directly like having members in cabinet or even having a direct say. They will have a say in regional matter and will use their base to get the coalition to pass, and their members will vote on bill by bill basis depending how it affects their province. The Bloc is a regional party, and they usually stay out of things that affect the rest of Canada. There power would be kept in check by Liberal, NDP, and the Conservatives.

This is an unprecidented opportunity for the Bloc. I very much doubt that the Conservatives are going to go out of thier way to vote with the Libs/NDP consortium to Block the Bloc on anything, they'll let the government fall and have an election. Anyone that thinks that the Bloc won't be pushing hard and making heavy demands to the Lib/NDP is fooling themselves, everyone knows that the one thing that the Lib/NDp want to avoid is an election in the next year. By being the only thing that keeps an especially weak minority government in place (lib/NDP), the Bloc essentially can push forward their Quebec first interests at the expense of other provinces, and Duccepe and Layton said repeatedly during the election that the evil Western Energy companies are ripe for the picking.

Originally Posted by Lchoy

- Proposed power sharing structure (Cabinet) would be 75% Liberal, 25% NDP. Coliation will have a 30 month term

Yet the NDP/Libs have 113 seats to the Conservatives 140+ seats, so while the Cabinet might not have Bloc members, the Bloc will be very demanding in terms of keeping this coalition in power.

Originally Posted by Lchoy

- Dion as the leader is a risk, but the opportunity is now for this coalition to work. He will step down in May, and the leadership succession is still taking place. Until that though, he is still the head of the Liberals

A leader that the majority of Canadian's saw as a complete joke (combine Conservative/Bloc/NDP votes) that lead to the downfall of his party, then he's going to abandon his post, and the Liberal's are going to appoint a new Prime Minister, without consulting the people of Canada on if they want him. Combine that with the fact that this coalition is going to install a shadow cabinet made up of mostly un elected former members of their party?

Originally Posted by Lchoy

- I need to see the details of the economic stimulus. While I agree that autoworkers and forestry workers are dying, we can't just throw money to keep a dying industry (auto) afloat. I sincerely hope there is tangible actions to it that will reform the industry or allow the workers to move on to other sectors.

If the Lib/NDP want my support and the majority of Canadian's support then they should announce this stimulus package before they take power. I don't like the arrogance of a group that makes a major decision like this without going to the polls or at least announcing it so that we can punish them when the election does come.

Originally Posted by Lchoy

- People that are calling it a coup or wondering what's the point of the election: keep in mind, the Conservatives don't have a MAJORITY. In fact, more Canadians voted against the conservatives but because they have the most votes, they form the government. This is the risk for every minority government

Nor do the Liberals, the NDP or the Bloc have the confidence in Canada to take government. They all finished with less seats and less votes then the Conservatives. The argument of combining the Lib/Bloc/NDP votes into one uber party is incorrect unless they were running on a platform to combine their parties during the election.

Originally Posted by Lchoy

- This is a Conservative PR nightmare. It was already ballsy to make the party funding a confidence motion, but to have no stimulus announcement and then have to admit they secretly taped meetings. That's like Watergate to the minds on Canadians

Sure, its a nightmare and a major conservatives strategic blunder. However the Liberal's were the ones that invited a Conservative to their conference call, which is a blunder or another stupid move by the Libs/NDP. And the Conservatives have said repeatedly that this was a economic update and not a budget where any stimulus if needed would be placed. The Libs/NDP wanted to make sure that they toppled the government before the budget because it there was any stimulus package in that budget they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

[browna]

Originally Posted by Jade

What I said was that the liberals are only willing to compromise if they are leading. The only way this coalition works is if everyone involved gets what they want.

That's why is won't. Layton 2 elections ago thought he had gained some power and some clout with the Liberals and would be able to pass some NDP spending and other programs through with Liberal help. Martin basically laughed in his face after all the dust is settled.

Even though this time you think there'd be some concrete promises if Layton was smart and not get burned again, but as soon as the Liberals have thier leader in there, it will buy them the time to get their ducks in a row for Ignaltieff and ease him in there and ramp up for an election, and they'll once again turn their backs on the Bloc and NDP when they come calling for thier plans and bills to be pushed through. Then the coalition will fall apart, and election time.

The troubleome part is what promises the Liberals would have given the NDP, and goodness forbid the Bloc, in setting this up in the meantime...Dion will be the lame duck/easy scapegoat (by his own party) for whatever scheme the NDP and Bloc do get through, as he's easy to lay this on, even by his own party, as there will be a new liberal leader...but the damage will be done. Kyoto, and driving dump trucks up to the CAW and BC forestry unions, some sort of transfer payment increase to Quebec, and some sort of renewable resource tax. And then try and blame the subsequent increase in taxes on the mismanagement of the Harper government.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Boy you think there is voter apathy now - wait to see what happens if this does all happen because basically it will render any vote in this last election completely useless.

The entire situation sickens me. How a man thinks he should lead a country after being rejected so soundly is astounding.

Heck, it'll do the opposite for me. I'm going to contact every single person I know across this fine country to get out a vote Conservative.

The latter sums up my thoughts exactly. It makes me sick. I just can't get my head around it.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Flame On

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...marketturmoil1
Don't know if you're spinning, perhaps "plan" to you means implementation. But even a cursory look of plans other countries are doing shows up. I don't know about you but these look like plans to me.
Gurdian

1.5 Trillion sterling ain't nothing to sniff at.

No spin.

They are deciding how much money to spend and where...on banks. As did the USA. That was just the credit crunch that was addressed by that.

Canada needed not to do that back then...thankfully.

They do need however to look at the auto industry, mining, and forestry. Thats what I mean by getting recommendations from the g-20 before implementing anything knee-jerk like the New Libs on the Bloq (love that term) did with their announcement of 30 billion dollars....but where is that money going?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Great post...except for the first line, which in my eyes is NOTHINg short of a Liberal power grab and selling their souls to do so.

Thanks!

I don't mean to imply that the Liberals are altruistic here, just that they are willing to compromise, which is exactly what is taking place right now.

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by transplant99

No spin.

They are deciding how much money to spend and where...on banks. As did the USA. That was just the credit crunch that was addressed by that.

Canada needed not to do that back then...thankfully.

They do need however to look at the auto industry, mining, and forestry. Thats what I mean by getting recommendations from the g-20 before implementing anything knee-jerk like the New Libs on the Bloq (love that term) did with their announcement of 30 billion dollars....but where is that money going?

Point conceded.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

This is an unprecidented opportunity for the Bloc. I very much doubt that the Conservatives are going to go out of thier way to vote with the Libs/NDP consortium to Block the Bloc on anything, they'll let the government fall and have an election. Anyone that thinks that the Bloc won't be pushing hard and making heavy demands to the Lib/NDP is fooling themselves, everyone knows that the one thing that the Lib/NDp want to avoid is an election in the next year. By being the only thing that keeps an especially weak minority government in place (lib/NDP), the Bloc essentially can push forward their Quebec first interests at the expense of other provinces, and Duccepe and Layton said repeatedly during the election that the evil Western Energy companies are ripe for the picking.

There is absolutely no other way for this to play out. Why the heck wouldn't they hold a gun to the NDP/Liberal's head? Unless Layton's "don't worry it's been taken care of" statement means that Quebec is getting many billions of handouts in return for them towing the line. But even after they get it, what's stopping them from asking for more "or else".

Either way, neither is good.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by transplant99

ANd yet who ends up with the power...and thats a democracy?

Laughable.

To answer your question: they all ended up sharing power, exactly as our democracy intended.

Unfortunately for Harper, he doesn't seem to have realized this, and kicked off his government as though he had total power. I'm sure he didn't anticipate these consequences, but that doesn't mean they couldn't or shouldn't have been anticipated, or that they're in any way undemocratic.

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by Jade

The only problem with that is no one voted for a group of parties, they voted for a party. If the majority of candadians are getting two votes, why don't I? The party got the majority of the votes was the conservatives, and they should get the chance to govern. This is essentially a coup. The spirit of the election laws are that the party with the most votes gets to govern. If they don't have over half, they need to work with the other parties to try and make it work. If they can't agree, yes the other parties have the right to make a coalition and try to govern themselves. Unfortunately, in this case, the opposition didn't even try to make it work, they just went out and disregarded the voters decision. To me, they didn't follow the spirit of the laws, which is what makes this more like a coup than an elected government.

Soo.... the Conservatives tried to make it work?