Coalition Deal To Topple Minority Tory Govt- [Update Parliament Prorogued until Jan]

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Fair enough--I agree that bailing out the auto industry immediately is a little shortsighted. However, that's not the only form "stimulus" can take. I'd personally like to see a stimulus take two forms: modest tax cuts, and some spending--with the latter focused on infrastructure programs that create jobs, and some enhanced entitlements for the poorest Canadians to stimulate consumer spending. In other words, the objective of a stimulus should be to increase employment and put more money in the pockets of consumers.

Didn't the Conservatives already promise a bunch of infrastructure spending? The municpalities are basically waiting for the disbursement of these dollars. And we don't know about tax cuts until the budget comes along, but I would think that the recommendations of the provinces and the G20 would incorporate those.

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

I actually don't favour bailing out the auto industry unless there are massive strings attached--that is--the money goes to preferred shares, or is a loan--and is contingent on development of energy efficient vehicles, and based on a sound fiscal plan demonstrating that the manufacturers are solvent through this crisis and in the future--and will keep their factories in Canada open. Otherwise, there's no percentage in a bailout. Auto companies in North America have themselves to blame for their woes in large part--they need to show that they have changed their strategic outlook before they get a single cent of government money in my view.

The factories in Canada are probably going to go away no matter how much money Canada gives the auto makers, especially if they don't get the bailouts out of the American's. So why would we even consider it until we hear from Obama when he takes over. These are not Canadian companies, that are beholden to hold jobs and production in this country when they are losing jobs and factories in the states.

Combined with the strings attached, the CAW union has already strongly stated that they will not negotiate salaries and benefits down in Canada, which is a major part of their cost issues, so until the CAW comes to the table, there is no point in giving money to these organizations.

We could practically throw money at ford of Canada, or GM of Canada and basically watch them shut down if the American's don't rescue them.

I have no trouble throwing dollars at mining and forestry jobs, however the global market has dramatically shrunk so its not like throwing money at them is going to increase sales or profitabilty in any way, it will just basically increase stagnant inventories.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Is there another way to read that point?

Are you insinuating that Harper is being a defecit hawk? He's said "We won't run a defecit unless we unveil a stimulus package" and "the next budget will contain stimulus actions based on advice from the G20 and leading economists".

It just blows my mind that we could have a Layton/Ignatieff steer us through this mess instead of someone with an economics degree.

So if Layton had a Master's in Economics, you'd prefer him over Harper?

What if Duceppe had a Doctorate?

What a silly fulcrum point for an argument. Harper isn't sitting in an ivory economics tower single handedly hatching out the budget to show the party once he's finished dotting every I and crossing every T. It's a tad more complicated than that.

[Ford Prefect]

Has anyone heard anything from Stelmach on this yet? A little leadership from the provincial government would be helpful. A statement about the harm that would come from pillaging Alberta's treasury and what the Alberta government will do should the coalition conduct such a raid might help remind the public about the consequences of such tactics. Come on Ed ... here's a chance to make a name for yourself. Can you imagine what Lougheed or Klein would have to say if this was happening while they were premier?

[Frequitude]

So this is my potentially irrational train of scared thought:

1) Story comes out the the NDP/Liberals will form a coalition with Bloc "support".
2) In the conference call Layton mentions not to worry about the Bloc. Agreements have been made with them "long ago".
3) In the conference call Layton mentions that "What we really want is just to get Harper out and get the new group in because it’s going to be a hell of a lot better for everything we believe in, correct? Correct."
4) Everyone recognizes that this coalition is on very tenuous ground because the Bloc could submarine it at any point.

Adding those up, I fear a quick but short lived stealing of power. In this time we'd see a quick "stealing" of big oil's money (carbon tax - what they believe in) and giving it to the big union sectors (forsetry, auto - what they believe in). Then this thing will topple and we'll have an election. Who knows what will happen in it, but the damage will have been done.


God, doesn't the quote from above give you the creeps?!?

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

This is like the Flames and Canucks teaming up to beat the Oilers in the 80s... while promising to give the Stanley Cup to the Canadiens, even though they "won't be involved."

Nailed it! I'm going to use that...

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by ikaris

Probably deficit spending. Keep in mind that the Conservatives have suggested that they would likely have to go this way if they were to offer a stimulus package as well.

But the Liberal's were screaming about the government to go into deficit, now they want to do it?

Originally Posted by ikaris

It's called compromise. Something the Conservatives had initially refused to do until the threat of the coalition was looming over their heads. They have already rescinded the public funding for the parties and the strike ban proposed for public employees. Let's see how much further they go to remain in power.

I would doubt that the conservatives are going to go any further. This was a mini update and not a budget, but the conservatives have also compromised by stating that they'll move the budget up to Jan 27th. To me the Liberal's and the NDP and the bloc have done a pretty piss poor job in terms of compromise, or working with the government on the economy as promised after the last election as well. The poisoned pen has gone both ways.

And for the record, I have no trouble in removing public funding for political parties, or recinding the right to strike for the public workers during a time of crisis.

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

So if Layton had a Master's in Economics, you'd prefer him over Harper?

What if Duceppe had a Doctorate?

What a silly fulcrum point for an argument. Harper isn't sitting in an ivory economics tower single handedly hatching out the budget to show the party once he's finished dotting every I and crossing every T. It's a tad more complicated than that.

Not to mention that Harper's economic policy indicates that he does not remember anything from his economics degree.

Laughable point to bandy about. Harper has an economics degree. Oh yeah? Great, prove to me that he uses it because there's a steady stream of evidence indicating that most of his economic policies were misguided. Look no further than the GST cut which almost every economist was critical of.

[transplant99]

Probably deficit spending. Keep in mind that the Conservatives have suggested that they would likely have to go this way if they were to offer a stimulus package as well.

Agreed...funny thing is that during the election they were HAMMERED by liberals on this very board for even suggesting this very possibility.

Now that the New Libs on the Bloq is suggesting it? No problem.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

So if Layton had a Master's in Economics, you'd prefer him over Harper?

What if Duceppe had a Doctorate?

What a silly fulcrum point for an argument. Harper isn't sitting in an ivory economics tower single handedly hatching out the budget to show the party once he's finished dotting every I and crossing every T. It's a tad more complicated than that.

Thanks for the condescending finish to what was about to be a good post/question.

Yes, I would feel a hell of a lot better about this situation if Layton or Duceppe had a high level economics education.

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

But the Liberal's were screaming about the government to go into deficit, now they want to do it?

Are you really surprised?

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I would doubt that the conservatives are going to go any further. This was a mini update and not a budget, but the conservatives have also compromised by stating that they'll move the budget up to Jan 27th. To me the Liberal's and the NDP and the bloc have done a pretty piss poor job in terms of compromise, or working with the government on the economy as promised after the last election as well. The poisoned pen has gone both ways.

And for the record, I have no trouble in removing public funding for political parties, or recinding the right to strike for the public workers during a time of crisis.

Hey, I'm with you here. I think it is prudent to wait and see how the Americans go, which is essentially what Harper was going to do. It's just so sad that the public funding thing was there because this issue would have been avoided without it.

Ultimately, it's pointless to assign blame at this point as what is important is what happens next. I still truly believe this coalition won't happen because I just don't see how the Liberals stand to benefit in the long run. I would guess that the Conservatives would eventually offer some plan for stimulus based on certain conditions, even if not implemented and then the Liberals will scream victory and bail out of the coalition.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

So if Layton had a Master's in Economics, you'd prefer him over Harper?

What if Duceppe had a Doctorate?

What a silly fulcrum point for an argument. Harper isn't sitting in an ivory economics tower single handedly hatching out the budget to show the party once he's finished dotting every I and crossing every T. It's a tad more complicated than that.

Well, Harper does have a Master's, so it would take a Doctorate to trump him...

In all seriousness though... corporate tax cuts are a stimulus plan. Anything past that is well advised to wait until Obama releases his plan for reasons that other posters have described. Wheeling up a dumptruck full of money to GM, Ford and Chrysler will do nothing if the US doesn't save them. It also doesn't help that the CAW refuses to negotiate. Even that is beside the point right now.

Point is, in sticky economic times, the people in charge can't be impulsive and reckless. Often in these times, certain industries die out or lose predominance to be replaced by something else. Maybe the stimulus package should be used to build a Refinery or two in Ontario and use laid off factory workers to staff it? Its still a month or two early to know for sure. Thing is, taxes should not go up in Canada, for anyone... personal or corporate. This is deficit time, but that deficit spending still needs to be responsible. I have zero faith the Layton/Duceppe/Liberal of the Week Cabal featuring the Politburo Council of Manley, Martin, Romanow and McKenna can do that effectively.

[Flash Walken]

Michael Ignatieff has a history phd from Harvard.

He'll be able to tell us how this was fixed last time it happened!

[Nancy]

No, no, no... the carbon tax will pay for all of this!

[FlamesAddiction]

I think people are worrying over nothing. Governments come and go, and for the most part, everything stays the same.

I'm not really a fan of this though, for the simple reason that we just spent a tonne of money for a pointless election where almost half of eligible voters didn't care and where the results didn't change much at all. Given the recession, I don't think we need to spend money on another election.

On the otherhand, I have been a little concerned about the Conservative governments plans (or lack thereof) for dealing with the recession and the looming potential social catastrophe. They seem to be insistant that we should just move along and that there is nothing to see... If the Liberals, NDP, and Bloc think that they have a better plan, then they should do something to try and get it through.

[Joborule]

This is nuts, I guess I'm going to be paying attention to politics a bit more now...

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Agreed...funny thing is that during the election they were HAMMERED by liberals on this very board for even suggesting this very possibility.

Now that the New Libs on the Bloq is suggesting it? No problem.

I definitely don't agree with it. It's probably going to happen one way or another as it will be necessary especially if the US puts together a large bailout plan. I know personally I never criticized what the Conservatives had proposed in principle, other than the public funding for the political parties.

EDIT: I should clarify... when Obama gets in, they'll put in a large stimulus package. They've already committed to a brutal bailout plan (which I think is useless personally)

[Frequitude]

Another thing that needs to be addressed is the general tone from the left that "Harper started it, now there's no other option".

Ya he did start it, then backed down when the opposition...opposed. Isn't that exactly how a minority government is supposed to work?

So he's backed down from his stupid idea (yes, it was stupid) and has promised that the budget will address our country's economic situation...but the NDP/Liberals still want to go ahead with the coalition?

For what reason? Harper's backed down.

...no, seriously. For what reason should they continue trying to steal power 6 weeks after an election?

[Ronald Pagan]

There's no such thing as stealing power in a minority government situation. Either you have the confidence of parliament or you don't. If you govern to the point where you lose confidence then you LOST power.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

First you've assumed that you know what the stimulus plan looks like, bail outs for the auto sector. I'd like to know where you get this inside information. It's most like conjecture based on some topical economic issues.

For what it's worth...

"The Canadian Press reported a source saying mid-Monday that the parties have agreed to present a $30-billion stimulus package that would offer substantial aid to the troubled auto and forestry industries."
- CBC.ca

Is anyone really surprised that the Liberal/NDP stimulus package would largely benefit the auto and forestry?

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Another thing that needs to be addressed is the general tone from the left that "Harper started it, now there's no other option".

It's purely politics. They can't be seen to stop now without a stimulus package because then this will be seen for what it truly is: the opposition parties flailing wildly because they're about to become bankrupt. Imagine if they did back off, in the future the Conservatives could go after them saying they're only looking out for money for themselves (which they clearly are).

By continuing this travesty, they make that argument a mute point.