That's not my biggest gripe when I'm a pedestrian, at least those cars are stopped. It's the guys who don't even wait for you to get on the sidewalk and zip by you with inches to spare. By far the most dangerous thing a driver can do, just wait until the person is on the sidewalk if you're making a right turn. This isn't New York City and you can spare a couple more seconds.
Disagree.
There are a couple intersections downtown where people would never get to move during rush hour if people waited for the crosswalk to be clear. 4th street and 6th Ave is one of them. There is a double left turn from 4th to 6th and before that sidewalk was closed for the demolition of the court building you had a constant stream of pedestrians through each green cycle for traffic trying to turn from 4th and constant vehicle traffic on the red cycle, so you'd never get to go if you waited for the crosswalk to be clear (because of a billion people walking on the don't walk).
I think that as long as there is enough room for a person to trip and fall without ending up in the path of your vehicle (so about 8 feet to be safe) you should be going. If you sit there and wait until they hit the sidewalk you are going to have a lot of people hating you every day after work.
I think that as long as there is enough room for a person to trip and fall without ending up in the path of your vehicle (so about 8 feet to be safe) you should be going. If you sit there and wait until they hit the sidewalk you are going to have a lot of people hating you every day after work.
I agree. Unfortunately, the Calgary Police dont. The law is that you cant enter a crosswalk until ALL pedestrians are on the sidewalk.
Regardless, I still excercise my own judgement, and will deal with the ticket if I get one. I have just as much motivation not to run someone over as the pedestrians have to not be run over.
But, while this law exists, most people will obey it. It makes intersections like you mentioned almost impossible to turn at.
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Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed
Just this last week, while I was biking to work, I made sure to cut as close to the front bumper to a car that was in the crosswalk as possible. My pedal was probably 6 inches from his bumper, and I was curving towards the car immediately after the crosswalk, so I was probably leaning over the car.
Sometime, I'm going to purposely ride into the side of a car.
I really don't think you riding your bike on sidewalks/ through a crosswalk makes you any better than the drivers who are breaking a different law.
I understand and agree with the OP- too many drivers don't consider how their actions affect the rest of the traffic flow. And along with the OP we could count anybody who stops past the stop line. Heck- on some the city has drawn a big X past the stop line, but people still stop there.
But unless you are walking your bike, you aren't a pedestrian, so please follow the rules of the road.
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It's been my experience that probably the vast majority of drivers who stop on the crosswalk realize that they did it and feel bad about it. More often than not, a knowing look in their direction results in an apologetic shrug from the driver. It's usually not until some jerkass pedestrian decides to make an issue of it does the driver get upset and things escalate.
I know I'm far too timid to actually get out of my car and tune someone for walking on my car, but I wouldn't shed a tear for any pedestrian that 4x4 beat up for doing that to his truck. Property damage isn't any more noble an offence as stopping in a crosswalk.
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I really don't think you riding your bike on sidewalks/ through a crosswalk makes you any better than the drivers who are breaking a different law.
I understand and agree with the OP- too many drivers don't consider how their actions affect the rest of the traffic flow. And along with the OP we could count anybody who stops past the stop line. Heck- on some the city has drawn a big X past the stop line, but people still stop there.
But unless you are walking your bike, you aren't a pedestrian, so please follow the rules of the road.
I really don't think you riding your bike on sidewalks/ through a crosswalk makes you any better than the drivers who are breaking a different law.
I understand and agree with the OP- too many drivers don't consider how their actions affect the rest of the traffic flow. And along with the OP we could count anybody who stops past the stop line. Heck- on some the city has drawn a big X past the stop line, but people still stop there.
But unless you are walking your bike, you aren't a pedestrian, so please follow the rules of the road.
I'm not going to argue about the letter of the law, but find me one person who actually cares if I ride my bike across a crosswalk instead of walking it - after cars have all stopped anyway.
If I was just jumping out into moving traffic, sure, I would be doing something unsafe. But who's going to complain when I save them 10-15 seconds by riding across instead of walking?
Plus, we are talking about totally different magnitudes of danger here. Me riding my bike across the street after cars have stopped is no less safe then walking across. Drivers pulling into the crosswalk is exponentially more dangerous - literally putting lives on the line if they happened to do it at just the wrong time. I've seen it countless times where had I been ten or twenty feet further ahead of where I was, I would have been hit.
Riding across a crosswalk could be dangerous, if you aren't being observant and waiting for cars to stop. Cars pulling into crosswalks is ALWAYS dangerous.
In support of what 4x4 said, there are times when a crap driver in front of you causes you to be stranded in a crosswalk, with nothing really you can do about it. I've had that happen to me (hasn't everyone?), but usually you are stopped in the crosswalk before any pedestrian would have even thought to be venturing out into the crosswalk in those situations, as obviously, the crosswalk wasn't clear yet. If I'm a pedestrian, I don't mind these cars very much, sure I still have to go around them, but they aren't really putting anyone's life at risk.
I'm not going to argue about the letter of the law, but find me one person who actually cares if I ride my bike across a crosswalk instead of walking it - after cars have all stopped anyway.
/raises his hand
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Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed
If I was just jumping out into moving traffic, sure, I would be doing something unsafe. But who's going to complain when I save them 10-15 seconds by riding across instead of walking?
I think I've been nearly clipped more times by cyclists downtown than I have been by motorists. Just sayin'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed
Plus, we are talking about totally different magnitudes of danger here. Me riding my bike across the street after cars have stopped is no less safe then walking across. Drivers pulling into the crosswalk is exponentially more dangerous - literally putting lives on the line if they happened to do it at just the wrong time. I've seen it countless times where had I been ten or twenty feet further ahead of where I was, I would have been hit.
Riding across a crosswalk could be dangerous, if you aren't being observant and waiting for cars to stop. Cars pulling into crosswalks is ALWAYS dangerous.
I would guess most people who stop in crosswalks do it while the light is yellow or just turned red. That is to say, there would be no pedestrians in the crosswalk. Walking around those vehicles to cross the street might put you closer to traffic coming from the other lane but to say it's always dangerous is not correct. Inconvenient. Possibly dangerous. But it's probably not as bad as you and others would suggest.
It's been my experience that probably the vast majority of drivers who stop on the crosswalk realize that they did it and feel bad about it. More often than not, a knowing look in their direction results in an apologetic shrug from the driver. It's usually not until some jerkass pedestrian decides to make an issue of it does the driver get upset and things escalate.
I agree. I do it from time to time and I feel like a jackass every time.
Sadly there are just too many idiots behind the wheel. Last Friday I watched the same thing happen. Myself and another guy were waiting to cross an avenue downtown. A van is coming up to the intersection pretty hot & ends up planting himself about 2/3rds into the crosswalk. As we are walking across the dude in front of me shoots him the stinkeye and the driver flips! WTF? I was so waiting for this tough guy to get out and start something cause I was already in a foul mood and certainly would've had the other guys' back.
That being said, some pedestrians need to get a clue. I drove into work today and nearly ran over some chump sprinting across when the light had already turned green for me to make a RH turn.
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Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed
Plus, we are talking about totally different magnitudes of danger here. Me riding my bike across the street after cars have stopped is no less safe then walking across. Drivers pulling into the crosswalk is exponentially more dangerous - literally putting lives on the line if they happened to do it at just the wrong time. I've seen it countless times where had I been ten or twenty feet further ahead of where I was, I would have been hit.
Funny you should mention that, because that was going to be my exact arguement for the riding of your bike through a pedestrian cross walk.
Let's use a right turn on red example. I am turning right on red, but the intersection has a somewhat obstructed view. So to proceed safely I inch my car forward; slow enough that a pedestrian approaching at 5-8 km/h would easily have time to see me, and I would have time to also see him. By riding your bike on the sidewalk, you are now bringing a vehicle into play travelling at several times that speed, and also adding the extra margin of error into play of your stopping distance.
My near miss with a bike that had the greatest potential to be spectacular happened in a similar situation. I was turning onto MacLeod from a strip mall, and had a downward slope onto MacLeod and cars blocking my view of the street and the sidewalk. So I inched forward so that I was not posing a risk to pedestrians. However some guy on a bike was wipping down the sidewalk at around 30 km/h and we almost had a collision. The cyclist then proceeded to tear a strip off of me; thinking that I was in the wrong.
I'm sorry, but when I was working downtown for many months I was parking 5 km from work so I had a lot of ground to walk. And the ratio of near misses with bikes riding on the sidewalk far out weighed the number of cars who encroached on the crosswalk.
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Bikes do not belong on the sidewalk or in a crosswalk, period. As ken has pointed out, they move too quickly for any motorist to safely notice them (great example, ken, I've seen that one many times when someone stops then proceeds only to have some dummy whip into the crosswalk at speed on the bike). Stay on the roads where you belong.
I would guess most people who stop in crosswalks do it while the light is yellow or just turned red. That is to say, there would be no pedestrians in the crosswalk. Walking around those vehicles to cross the street might put you closer to traffic coming from the other lane but to say it's always dangerous is not correct. Inconvenient. Possibly dangerous. But it's probably not as bad as you and others would suggest.
Sure, what you say is true. But many of these people do it habitually. It's that one time when it's not that it becomes so dangerous. When drivers do it on yellow and red lights, they get into a habit of doing it, and then they start forgetting how dangerous to do when pedestrians are actually crossing.
Most of the time, I think, it is cars that are turning right on a red light. Very rarely do they actually stop before the crosswalk, in my experience.
Quote:
I think I've been nearly clipped more times by cyclists downtown than I have been by motorists. Just sayin'.
And I'd probably walk my bike across if I was downtown where it's more likely to be busy, and there's more pedestrians around.
I realize that bikes can be very menacing to pedestrians when the bikes are moving significantly faster then they are. Where I bike, and the crosswalks I use aren't very busy.
Funny you should mention that, because that was going to be my exact arguement for the riding of your bike through a pedestrian cross walk.
Let's use a right turn on red example. I am turning right on red, but the intersection has a somewhat obstructed view. So to proceed safely I inch my car forward; slow enough that a pedestrian approaching at 5-8 km/h would easily have time to see me, and I would have time to also see him. By riding your bike on the sidewalk, you are now bringing a vehicle into play travelling at several times that speed, and also adding the extra margin of error into play of your stopping distance.
My near miss with a bike that had the greatest potential to be spectacular happened in a similar situation. I was turning onto MacLeod from a strip mall, and had a downward slope onto MacLeod and cars blocking my view of the street and the sidewalk. So I inched forward so that I was not posing a risk to pedestrians. However some guy on a bike was wipping down the sidewalk at around 30 km/h and we almost had a collision. The cyclist then proceeded to tear a strip off of me; thinking that I was in the wrong.
I'm sorry, but when I was working downtown for many months I was parking 5 km from work so I had a lot of ground to walk. And the ratio of near misses with bikes riding on the sidewalk far out weighed the number of cars who encroached on the crosswalk.
I realize this as well, if I come up to an intersection, and I'm not 100% certain that every car can see me, I'll slow down and/or stop until I know for certian that everyone has seen me.
The walk across crosswalks rule is in place for exactly the scenario you described, it's for when drivers have to inch forward to see. There are times as a driver, where they simply cannot see if there is anyone in the crosswalk.
I'll agree with you that the biker was in the wrong in this case, hence why I say that I wait for cars to have seen me and stopped before I proceed to ride across the intersection.
It my life on the line, and I'll ride like I know that. If there's any doubt, I'll make sure that I'm protecting myself.
I also have seen too many bikers that don't seemingly care about watching out for themselves - doing the things that you mention.
Bikes do not belong on the sidewalk or in a crosswalk, period. As ken has pointed out, they move too quickly for any motorist to safely notice them (great example, ken, I've seen that one many times when someone stops then proceeds only to have some dummy whip into the crosswalk at speed on the bike). Stay on the roads where you belong.
I know I said sidewalk in an earlier post, but on my route to work I'm only on a road or on a bikepath. I don't usually ride on sidewalks.
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I think I've been nearly clipped more times by cyclists downtown than I have been by motorists. Just sayin'.
I would guess most people who stop in crosswalks do it while the light is yellow or just turned red. That is to say, there would be no pedestrians in the crosswalk. Walking around those vehicles to cross the street might put you closer to traffic coming from the other lane but to say it's always dangerous is not correct. Inconvenient. Possibly dangerous. But it's probably not as bad as you and others would suggest.
If you re-read my original post, you will see that it is ALWAYS dangerous for my girlfriend, and for anyone else who has a disability. Don't just assume everyone is able to climb over an engine bonnet if necessary.
For myself, it's annoying and gives me a big scowl, but for many others it's more than dangerous. I'm not sure what it's like in Calgary, but here in Toronto there are a lot of deep and bumpy streetcar tracks on the street, where if someone in a wheelchair has to go at an angle to get around a car they also run the risk of getting a wheel jammed in the rut and being stranded there. It's never happened to my girlfriend, but it HAS actually happened to an older guy I know who has since passed away from cancer. He got stuck in a streetcar track in his manual chair and not one person got out of their car to help the guy - someone on the curb had to run out and get him out.
I don't care if it's the guy ahead of you who speeds ahead that is reponsible or not, it's dangerous and irresponsible. The driver is in a huge hunk of steel, take the extra two seconds and see if the light is yellow or red before you boot 'er out.
And for the record, another pet peeve of mine are bikes on sidewalks. I've felt more threatened by them than cars, to be honest. If someone in a wheelchair, who doesn't have the ability to jump out of the way, gets nailed by a cyclist it could be nasty.
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