Conservatives To Slash Federal Funding of Political Parties [Update-CPC backs down]

[transplant99]

There's nothing out of the ordinary about the minority parties forming a coalition in order to govern.

Well except for the fact that since confederation it has only occurred once at the federal level in 140 years. Again, just because they CAN do it, does not mean they should nor does it make it the right thing to do. As you say, optics are a big part of this thing and the biggest illusion of them all in this case is the Liberals claiming this is a good thing for Canada, when in reality it is only good for them and their "at any cost" approach to seize some pwer back from their most serious foes.

1. Harper has massively overplayed his hand, and has lost. The outcome of this is very likely that he will remain PM, but will be forced to include the opposition parties much more meaningfully in his government. There's no winning play for him any more, only damage control.

Disagree. What he has done in reality is forced the opposition parties to pretty much force another election in the near future...an election no one wants to see. At that time I believe we will see the conservatives elected to an easy majority just so there is no election for at least 4 more years.

I agree with the poster who suggested that Harper's next move is to recruit disaffected MPs from other parties--he has the strongest mandate of any single party leader, and that's his last remaining advantage

A distinct possibility but I would rather he goes the election route and ends this BS once and for all.

[transplant99]

How didn't I? You questioned why the opposition parties want to remove the authority of minority government... something about a "gross abbrogration of democracy"

because you didnt answer the main basis of the post which was...why is it OK to supplant the elected government based on their "plan" to deal with the current crisis, and replace it with a group of 3 parties who also don't have a "plan" of any kind I have been able to find.

What is happening here is that the Conservatives are refusing to discuss the budget

They are? How do we know that? Seriously, I haven't seen that proven one way or the other.

A coalition between the Liberals and NDP are closer idealogically other than major fiscal policy issues

So close in fact that Dion campaigned AGAINST such a coalition 6 weeks ago. What changed?

The BQ, that's another story. Although it seems they really aren't asking much and they wouldn't actually be apart of the coalition government

You cant be serious? They would wield the MOST power among the 3 parties...how are you not seeing this?

Don't worry, it's not going to happen as long as the Conservatives are willing to negotiate. This will be a good lesson for the Conservatives either way. The Liberals know that a coalition would be detrimental to their future status so it's just posturing.

A good lesson? On what? Gaining power at any cost? And if the Liberals are playing chicken, they have made a massive mistake. They will lose ANY election within the next year and by a landslide. Hell their support in the last one was at its lowest since the party formed sans 2 other times. they are in NO position to be dictating anything to anyone about governing Canada right now.

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by transplant99

because you didnt answer the main basis of the post which was...why is it OK to supplant the elected government based on their "plan" to deal with the current crisis, and replace it with a group of 3 parties who also don't have a "plan" of any kind I have been able to find.

The main point of contention is the lack of a stimulus package for the country. Many economists and financial analysts are questioning why the Conservatives aren't providing one as well. Personally I am happy with what Conservatives are proposing but that is not what we are debating.

Originally Posted by transplant99

They are? How do we know that? Seriously, I haven't seen that proven one way or the other.

Straight out of the horses mouth:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/11/28/flaherty.html

It just seems terribly arrogant.

Originally Posted by transplant99

So close in fact that Dion campaigned AGAINST such a coalition 6 weeks ago. What changed?

The election is over?

Originally Posted by transplant99

You cant be serious? They would wield the MOST power among the 3 parties...how are you not seeing this?

Maybe the balance of power, but the Liberals could easily dissolve the coalition if it didn't make sense (but seriously, there won't be a coalition). Maybe you could clarify to me how they would have the most power?

Originally Posted by transplant99

A good lesson? On what? Gaining power at any cost? And if the Liberals are playing chicken, they have made a massive mistake. They will lose ANY election within the next year and by a landslide. Hell their support in the last one was at its lowest since the party formed sans 2 other times. they are in NO position to be dictating anything to anyone about governing Canada right now.

A good lesson in the consequences of arrogance. I don't agree with your analysis about the future prospects of an election. A lot of people are very angry at the Conservatives for causing this whole situation to begin with (re: partisan public funding removal). The opposition parties are now in a significantly greater position as now the Conservatives will have to be more inclusive to remain in power.

[Draug]

Originally Posted by transplant99

A good lesson? On what? Gaining power at any cost? And if the Liberals are playing chicken, they have made a massive mistake. They will lose ANY election within the next year and by a landslide. Hell their support in the last one was at its lowest since the party formed sans 2 other times. they are in NO position to be dictating anything to anyone about governing Canada right now.

Obviously, the Conservatives know this. Hopefully, they dont negotiate at all. I'm suprised they said they would keep the Federal funding for politcal parties. I'd love to see the Liberal bluff called, with a result of an election, followed by a Conservative Majority.

The Liberals and The Bloq arent even allowing the Conservatives to govern, even though the country elected them. It feels like the Liberals are terrorist, holding the government hostage. The free world doesnt negotiate with terrorists, do they?

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by Draug

Obviously, the Conservatives know this. Hopefully, they dont negotiate at all. I'm suprised they said they would keep the Federal funding for politcal parties. I'd love to see the Liberal bluff called, with a result of an election, followed by a Conservative Majority.

You're joking right? You do realize that the opposition parties are discussing a coalition?

[Draug]

Originally Posted by ikaris

You're joking right? You do realize that the opposition parties are discussing a coalition?

Yes, I know. I was speaking tongue in cheek - sort of. But I dont really think the Liberals want a Coalition. Plus, cant the Governor General decide if the Vote of Nonconfidence results in a Coalition or another election?

But, really, it frustrates me that this all arises from the Conservatives wanting to remove Federal funding from Political parties. I honestly thought it was a good idea. The population elects a party; why would they want their party spending tax money on the party they didnt elect? I'd be in favor of removing this funding if the Liberals were in power and wanted it removed too.

In times of economic turmoil, I feel the more government spending that can be removed the better. I feel deficit spending doesnt work in the long term.

[transplant99]

Liberals know that a coalition would be detrimental to their future status so it's just posturing.

vs

You do realize that the opposition parties are discussing a coalition?

Which way is it?

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by transplant99

vs



Which way is it?

That was just a response to a comment that has been stated as tongue in cheek. I stand by my assertion that this is just posturing.

EDIT: Actually let me clarify, I am assuming that the Conservatives will negotiate. If not, then a coalition will definitely govern (and rightfully so, I might add).

[chowdachad]

Originally Posted by ikaris

That was just a response to a comment that has been stated as tongue in cheek. I stand by my assertion that this is just posturing.

EDIT: Actually let me clarify, I am assuming that the Conservatives will negotiate. If not, then a coalition will definitely govern (and rightfully so, I might add).

How so, the coalition wasn't voted into power by the people of Canada so why is it there right to bully their way in?

[Ford Prefect]

I don't mean to make light of a very serious situation, but I figure a little levity is always good. The folks over at Small Dead Animals are having a bit of fun with this. They have a thread suggesting names for the coalition. Here's some of the better ones. They are of course not flattering, as SDA is a bastion of conservatism.

Coalition Of The Swilling
New Libloq
The Progressive Pork Party
The USSR - Union of Separatists and Socialists against the Right
New Libs on the Bloc
The Raucas Porkas Caucus
Bloc Torontois

I kind of like that last one. When you consider where the voter support for the three coalition partners comes from, it's basically Toronto and Quebec. Take out the Toronto and Quebec votes and the coalition doesn't have enough MPs to form a knitting club. But I guess that's where the political power base in Canada is. It's not very fair to the rest of Canada though. If the coalition is successful in their attempt to seize power it's probably going to rip the country apart along those regional lines. Now isn't that just what Canada needs at present, a unity crisis on top of an economic and political crisis.

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by chowdachad

How so, the coalition wasn't voted into power by the people of Canada so why is it there right to bully their way in?

Essentially because the Conservatives have only been given a minority mandate and by refusing to modify this budget to obtain support from an opposition party, they are not representing what they've been given the power to do.

It's been beaten to death in this thread as to if a coalition actually represents the voters. I am of the belief that it does it is represents the largest total number of votes. Others obviously disagree. The reasons either way can be found looking back at other posts.

As I said, this posturing essentially forces the Conservatives to negotiate, and we can all move forward. I think that we all come out better once this is all over because now the Conservatives will be more inclusive as they know now that there is at least some sort of back bone from the opposition which was not displayed during the last cycle.

I could not possible imagine a scenario where the Conservatives would refuse to budge.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

I just read elsewhere, not in an article, but on another forum, that instead of having a leadership convention now, the Liberal caucus will select a new leader, Michael Ignatieff, to lead this new coalition.

Anyone else seeing this somewhere? I don't think this dire situation is getting nearly the play it is needed to get in the national media.

Awesome, so the Liberal's are going to ignore the election results and the desire for Canadian's for a conservative government.

Broadbent and Chretien are making a comeback and making decisions because they feel that they should make decisions for the Canadian Voters.

They're going to not have a leadership conference and basically appoint a leader . . .

Who did not run for Prime Minister in an election

And have him appointed to the role of Prime Minister

Hey while they're on this roll, maybe they can dig up the body of old Pierre Elliot and put him on permanent display on Parliament hill.

[Resolute 14]

I like calling this a coup d'etat, because that is precisely what the opposition is attempting. Ronald is correct, however, in that it is a legal mechanism in our system. If the government falls, the GG has the right to ask the next largest party if they are able to form a government, or to dissolve parliament and send us back to the polls.

If the latter happens, I can only imagine how acrimonious the next election would be. You know the Conservatives will be hammering the opposition over and over again about how they collapsed government for the sake of their own wallets.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I like calling this a coup d'etat, because that is precisely what the opposition is attempting. Ronald is correct, however, in that it is a legal mechanism in our system. If the government falls, the GG has the right to ask the next largest party if they are able to form a government, or to dissolve parliament and send us back to the polls.

If the latter happens, I can only imagine how acrimonious the next election would be. You know the Conservatives will be hammering the opposition over and over again about how they collapsed government for the sake of their own wallets.

If it comes to that, I wonder if Michaelle Jean's liberal partisanship will come into play.

[CaptainCrunch]

I just have a gut feeling that our GG is not going to take the controversial path, she's going to go by the play book, ignore the coalition and call an election.

If this goes to an election, its going to effectively split the Liberal party as there have to be members that are extremely unhappy with jumping into bed with the bloc and giving them that much power. In giving a fringe nutjob party like the NDP power in a government, and in retaining Dion.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

If it comes to that, I wonder if Michaelle Jean's liberal partisanship will come into play.

Probably not, the NDP would want her position dissolved or turned into a kitchen table.

[metallicat]

I think Harper should fire Mihaelle Jean right now, and replace her with a CPC plug.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Awesome, so the Liberal's are going to ignore the election results and the desire for Canadian's for a conservative government.

Actually, this rumour is even better than that.

Not only would the Liberals usurp the throne, they would toss the democratic process entirely by denying the rank and file Liberals the right to vote on who they want leading them.

Who would have guessed that Canada would turn into a banana republic?

All we need now is troops in our streets... oh, wait, that was what the Conservatives were going to do.

[CaptainCrunch]

Count Dooku: What if I told you that the Liberal Party was now under the control of a dark lord of the Sith?
Obi-Wan: No, that's not possible. The Canadian Voters would sense it.
Count Dooku: The Dark Side has clouded their vision. Hundreds of Liberal, NDP and BLoc MP's are now under the influence of a Sith lord called Darth Duccepe.
Obi-Wan: I don't believe you.

[Slava]

^ I haven't read all of this train wreck of a thread (and honestly have no intention of wading through this), so take my comments as you see fit but:

- This whole thing was brought about by Harper to begin with. He really has no reason other than trying to cripple his opponents to stick that paragraph in the bill.

- Harper is/was trying to call their bluff. He lost/loses....if the budget update was really just a simple update there would be nothing to worry about. He knew what he was trying to do, and just didn't think that the other parties would actually vote him down.

- Harper stated earlier this week that the time has come to run deficits and provide stimulus to the economy. Then he puts this measure forward which was never mentioned before and includes nothing in terms of stimulus plans or measures...obviously he set himself up for this problem.

- Lastly, the savings of $30 million is next to nothing. This has nothing to do with bringing the budget in line, or cutting where we need to in order to become fiscally responsible. This was a shot at his opponents and it simply didn't work.