Conservatives To Slash Federal Funding of Political Parties [Update-CPC backs down]

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by peter12

If they bring down this government, they betray the wishes of the people of Canada. Pure and simple.

Wow. You're really going for it in this thread.

There's no betraying. This is parliamentary democracy. If the other parties' coalition gathers traction then they have all the right to form government. That's the basic of a parliamentary system.

I didn't see you complaining when the Conservatives formed government in our system. Now you're whining because the rules can work against you?

Get a grip. You can make intelligent posts around here. Lately though you come off as an a-hole partisan hack with no analytical framework beyond kowtowing the party you support.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

Wow. You're really going for it in this thread.

There's no betraying. This is parliamentary democracy. If the other parties' coalition gathers traction then they have all the right to form government. That's the basic of a parliamentary system.

I didn't see you complaining when the Conservatives formed government in our system. Now you're whining because the rules can work against you?

Get a grip. You can make intelligent posts around here. Lately though you come off as an a-hole partisan hack with no analytical framework beyond kowtowing the party you support.

I didn't even vote Conservative this last election...

So you think that the majority of Canadians voted for the Bloc Quebecois to be part of a coalition government?

[transplant99]

I would suggest that the left side of the political spectrum is currently being split between the Liberals, NDP, and Green

That's the left's problem, not a Canadian citizen problem, and certainly not the "right's" problem

How many ridings would the conservatives have won if the Liberals and NDP combined their votes?

then they should quit running candidates against each other...right? But the truth is, they have fought like cats and dogs for decades as well. Why? Because nither will secede power to the other, as well as the fact that they are no where really close to each other in ideology. Its perceived that the Liberals are left and the Cons are right...but the fact is they are both centrists with a few minor differences.

Is there another party in Canada that leans to the right other than the conservatives?

Right now? Not so much but indeacdes past there sure have been. So-Cred, Reform, Alliance etc....but what the Conservatives did was work through the silliness of it all and get their people all on the same page in an effort to move forward. Somthing the Liberaks seemingly dont want/cant do, much like their fundraising abilities to get support from grass roots.

I would suggest (purely my opinion) that Canada is left-leaning and that we are in this minority government not because the conservatives represent the majority, but because the Liberals can't get their "stuff" together (Dion didn't help either).

Canada is centrist by majority votes...period. The Liberals have been elected many times, so have the Conservatives and philosophically if a country leans one way only or the other, that could not happen. Dion is a Liberal problem, not anyone elses.

So again, you would have to say that though the Conservatives didnt get the majority of the votes overall they did get the biggest majority of the votes, therefor combining the Bloc/Libs/Greens as being somehow the same thing is fallacy at best, and NOT representative of what the country voted for.

[transplant99]

Get a grip. You can make intelligent posts around here. Lately though you come off as an a-hole partisan hack with no analytical framework beyond kowtowing the party you support.

And you don't?



The argument that Canadians did NOT vote for the Liberals to get in bed with the Bloc is an easy one to make IMO.

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by peter12

I didn't even vote Conservative this last election...

So you think that the majority of Canadians voted for the Bloc Quebecois to be part of a coalition government?

People don't vote for coalition governments they vote for the party they support. If the party they support forms government then I think they are pretty pleased with themselves.

I don't know any NDP supporters out there would rather their party not form government because the Bloc would be involved in the coalition? Anybody?

I know one thing. A majority of Canadians DIDN'T vote for the Conservatives to form government.

[FanIn80]

Like I've already said, this is nothing more than a power play by the Liberals and the crumb-gathering NDP.

This country has elected a Conservative government the last two elections in a row. Regardless of who, as individuals, we've voted for... this COUNTRY has elected the Conservatives. It's that simple.

Throughout this entire time, the Liberals and NDP have done nothing but run smear campaigns and attempt to make everyone afraid of the Conservatives during an election, and then try to wrestle power away from the Conservatives after the elections.

I can not remember the last time a Liberal (or NDP) party had a single, solid idea that benefited this entire country. All they do is piss and moan and demand that they have the power.

Here we are in the beginning stages of what may very-well be the next Great Depression and what are they doing? Instead of working together like the Conservatives asked for, they are climbing all over themselves to STILL try to wrestle power back into their hands.

The worst part, is their own parties are a complete mess. They don't even have worthwhile party leadership, so they have to turn to one of the most hated PMs in our history to help them... and yet they actually think they'll be able to lead Canada through the Global Financial Crisis?

They can't even lead themselves to the supermarket without spending taxpayer's money, and instead of recognizing that and working WITH the Conservatives, they are willing to throw the entire country under their bus just to get power.

For the record, this is exactly why they haven't been able to ELECTIVELY form a Government during the last two elections.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

People don't vote for coalition governments they vote for the party they support. If the party they support forms government then I think they are pretty pleased with themselves.

I don't know any NDP supporters out there would rather their party not form government because the Bloc would be involved in the coalition? Anybody?

I know one thing. A majority of Canadians DIDN'T vote for the Conservatives to form government.

My question is simple. Did the majority of Canadians that voted for federalist parties chose to have a separatist party involved in making policy and forming budgets?

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by peter12

I didn't even vote Conservative this last election...

So you think that the majority of Canadians voted for the Bloc Quebecois to be part of a coalition government?

Well

"Under this deal the Liberals would form the government, the NDP would sit in it with cabinet seats and the Bloc Quebecois would support this new NDP-Liberal coalition from outside the government," said Fife.

So the Bloc would seemingly not have a say in the governing. Sounds like they would help bring the conservatives down and then return to their opposition with a minority government role.

Really, it would be equally damning for the BQ to take part in a Canadian ruling scenario.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Well


So the Bloc would seemingly not have a say in the governing. Sounds like they would help bring the conservatives down and then return to their opposition with a minority government role.

Really, it would be equally damning for the BQ to take part in a Canadian ruling scenario.

That is so hilarious. So a coalition government can be formed with the help of a separatist party and then will not be allowed to govern from inside the cabient. Meanwhile, our government will be run by a coalition party with LESS seats than the Conservative Party. Wow.

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by peter12

My question is simple. Did the majority of Canadians that voted for federalist parties chose to have a separatist party involved in making policy and forming budgets?

You'd have to ask them whether they were supporting federalist parties because they were federalist.

If anything, the federalist representation in Quebec is MORE accurate with a Liberal coalition government as the Liberals had the higher vote share in the province.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

You'd have to ask them whether they were supporting federalist parties because they were federalist.

If anything, the federalist representation in Quebec is MORE accurate with a Liberal coalition government as the Liberals had the higher vote share in the province.

Do you work for the Liberal Party of Canada?

Okay, I'll ask you... do you want a separatist party that does not run a full slate of national candidates and thus does not have the support of all Canadians to have governing power in this country.

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by peter12

That is so hilarious. So a coalition government can be formed with the help of a separatist party and then will not be allowed to govern from inside the cabient. Meanwhile, our government will be run by a coalition party with LESS seats than the Conservative Party. Wow.

Less seats but more popular vote.

Conservatives got 38 percent of the vote. The NDP and Liberals combined got 44 percent.

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Canada is centrist by majority votes...period. The Liberals have been elected many times, so have the Conservatives and philosophically if a country leans one way only or the other, that could not happen. Dion is a Liberal problem, not anyone elses.

So again, you would have to say that though the Conservatives didnt get the majority of the votes overall they did get the biggest majority of the votes, therefor combining the Bloc/Libs/Greens as being somehow the same thing is fallacy at best, and NOT representative of what the country voted for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...eral_elections

Looking back historically, the Liberals have formed 23 governments an the Conservatives have formed 16 governments. I don't know about you, but looking at the graph looks decidedly more pink than blue historically, even when the Conservatives formed the government.

We'll have to agree to disagree then because I do not think it's a fallacy to suggest that a coalition government would be most representative of this country. I think it's a fallacy to suggest otherwise. A coalition would represent compromise between the parties... how is it not representative?

EDIT: I thought I should add, that while the conservatives and liberals tend to be centrist, the social and foreign policy differences are very polarizing and it is why many diehard conservatives or liberals will never vote the other way.

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by peter12

Do you work for the Liberal Party of Canada?

Okay, I'll ask you... do you want a separatist party that does not run a full slate of national candidates and thus does not have the support of all Canadians to have governing power in this country.

Well you yourself said they wouldn't have governing power as they wouldn't have anyone in cabinet... so answer your own question.

And, no contrary to popular opinion, I am not a Liberal, have never voted for a Liberal, and don't plan to.

I believe in democracy.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

Less seats but more popular vote.

Conservatives got 38 percent of the vote. The NDP and Liberals combined got 44 percent.

But that's not the way we do things here. FPTP not PR.

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by peter12

But that's not the way we do things here. FPTP not PR.

Great, so you want to play by the rules when it suits you?

Because the Bloc, NDP and Liberals forming a government is playing by the rules.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Well


So the Bloc would seemingly not have a say in the governing. Sounds like they would help bring the conservatives down and then return to their opposition with a minority government role.

Really, it would be equally damning for the BQ to take part in a Canadian ruling scenario.

Yeah, that makes zero sense whats so ever, its an optics statement more then reality.

Right now the Conservatives have 143 seats to the Libs and NDP's combined 113 seats, and since the budget vote is automatically a confidence vote, we'd be going to the polls the day after the budget is defeated.

so you can bet that the Bloc would represent a strong shadow cabinet to a Lib/NDP coalition government, so beyond the ######ed spending that the NDP would be trying to push through, you'd be seeing a whole lot of funds and pandering going to the Bloc in order to support the budget. In a NDP/Lib coalition minority government, the Bloc would hold a very large hammer with the government of Canada, since the conservative seat count on its own would defeat any coalition that doesn't feature the bloc.

For all intensive purposes the Bloc would be part of Canada's ruling Troika.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Like I've already said, this is nothing more than a power play by the Liberals and the crumb-gathering NDP.

This country has elected a Conservative government the last two elections in a row. Regardless of who, as individuals, we've voted for... this COUNTRY has elected the Conservatives. It's that simple.

Throughout this entire time, the Liberals and NDP have done nothing but run smear campaigns and attempt to make everyone afraid of the Conservatives during an election, and then try to wrestle power away from the Conservatives after the elections.

I can not remember the last time a Liberal (or NDP) party had a single, solid idea that benefited this entire country. All they do is piss and moan and demand that they have the power.

Here we are in the beginning stages of what may very-well be the next Great Depression and what are they doing? Instead of working together like the Conservatives asked for, they are climbing all over themselves to STILL try to wrestle power back into their hands.

The worst part, is their own parties are a complete mess. They don't even have worthwhile party leadership, so they have to turn to one of the most hated PMs in our history to help them... and yet they actually think they'll be able to lead Canada through the Global Financial Crisis?

They can't even lead themselves to the supermarket without spending taxpayer's money, and instead of recognizing that and working WITH the Conservatives, they are willing to throw the entire country under their bus just to get power.

For the record, this is exactly why they haven't been able to ELECTIVELY form a Government during the last two elections.

Wow, take off the blinders. This was a power play by the Conservatives, end of story. Even other conservatives in this thread have admitted this was a move to test the Libs and see if they'd roll over without a fight. Taking away the subsidies has almost nothign to do with fighting a rescission, and everythign to do with testing the power of thier minority government.
Do you expect the other parties to just accept anything that's put forward in the name of making government work?
It's their responsibility to respresent their voters and ensure the Conservatives pull a little closer to the center and don't pull arrogant tricks like this one.
Well done to the other parties

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by ikaris

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...eral_elections


We'll have to agree to disagree then because I do not think it's a fallacy to suggest that a coalition government would be most representative of this country. I think it's a fallacy to suggest otherwise. A coalition would represent compromise between the parties... how is it not representative?

Respectfully, under the current system thats not really true, in terms of the FPTP and seat voting, Canada showed that they wanted a minority conservative government, and in fact they increased the strength of the Conservatives mandate by roughly 30 seats.

This discussion of popular vote is really irrelevant in a system that isn't based on popular vote. I've always thought that the argument of popular votes dosen't make sense, even Jean Chretiens power majority really didn't have the popular vote so under the pv vote argument you could say that Canadian's didn't want the Liberal's to rule.

If the people of Canada had wanted the Liberals to form the government, they would have given the Libs enough seats to form the minority, same with the NDP. You also need to combine the fact that the Liberal's have little to no representation west of the Manitoba boarder, so the voters are saying that the Liberals really don't represent all of Canada. The NDP have seats across the country, but the tiny number of seats that they do have says that their message isn't good enough or strong enough to gain enough seats to be a force.

The problem with coalition governments is that it gives power to the lunatic fringe to demand more power sharing then they're worth. Giving the NDP the keys to the budget is not what Canadian's want. Allowing a panicked leaderless party to govern is not what Canadian's want under the current election rules.

Giving the Bloc the ability to have a say in national government policy is really what Quebecers want, but not Canadians.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Wow, take off the blinders. This was a power play by the Conservatives, end of story. Even other conservatives in this thread have admitted this was a move to test the Libs and see if they'd roll over without a fight. Taking away the subsidies has almost nothign to do with fighting a rescission, and everythign to do with testing the power of thier minority government.
Do you expect the other parties to just accept anything that's put forward in the name of making government work?
It's their responsibility to respresent their voters and ensure the Conservatives pull a little closer to the center and don't pull arrogant tricks like this one.
Well done to the other parties

It was actually part of a mini-budget which included redutions of over 4 billion dollars.