Why do people hate Satan so much?

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The two are not dependent on each other at all.

does the same rule apply for god....believe in one you got to believe in all, Juda, Mohamed, Budha....chick with the Elephant head and crazy arms

[mykalberta]

Satan is the embodiment of human action that we know to be wrong even if there isnt a rule or law saying so. The red horn creature with a pitch fork has nothing to do with Religion. It likely has to do with the Church attempting to scare people.

Example - if you see a homosexual being beaten up by a group of people simply for being what he/she is - that is wrong - no matter what you think of the persons personal choices.

Lord of the Flies basically had it right. Humanity at its core is evil and its only the societal norms in place that keep us from falling into chaos.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

made me laugh

http://www.avclub.com/content/node/52383

[T@T]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The two are not dependent on each other at all.

I'm far from an expert but didn't the scripts of God create Satan or was it just people trying scare tactics?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by T@T

I'm far from an expert but didn't the scripts of God create Satan or was it just people trying scare tactics?

Scripts of God? You mean de Bible? If so yes...I think its in Ezekiel where Lucifer is created...but Im just flying off the top of my head.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Scripts of God? You mean de Bible? If so yes...I think its in Ezekiel where Lucifer is created...but Im just flying off the top of my head.

Actually, I think Satan was kicked out of Heaven for leading a rebeblion of Angels.......allegedly

[driveway]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Lord of the Flies basically had it right. Humanity at its core is evil and its only the societal norms in place that keep us from falling into chaos.

Bull hooey.

If that were true we never would have been able to construct societies in the first place, we'd constantly be collapsing into chaos. The lessons of history are that humanity will always attempt to find and create some kind of stable order, the nature of that order will depend on the number of people and the environmental situation.

Humanity, at its core, is a reproductive engine. In a 'primitive' state we will do what is necessary to ensure our own survival. If you're going to declare that 'evil' then you have to call lions evil for eating their young, or female spiders evil for killing their mates.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by ok, ok,....I get it

Actually, I think Satan was kicked out of Heaven for leading a rebeblion of Angels.......allegedly

Not in the bible, but there's a mythology created by later writers such as Dante and Milton which basically serves as a back-story.

In the Old Testament, Satan was actually simply a servant of God, and is referred to in Jewish texts as the Accuser. Basically, a like a prosecuting attorney. He never acted against God's will, though he disagreed with God.
The name Lucifer is from Isaiah: Isaiah preaches against a villainous babylonian king, and at one point refers to him as Morningstar, which translates to Lucifer. Later interpretations somehow decided that Isaiah was speaking about a fallen angel, even though the passage is quite clearly talking about a mortal king, especially when given full context.

Basically, what we view as Satan/Lucifer today is a combination of a stories about a perfectly obedient angel who acted as a 'devil's advocate' for God, a Caananite myth about the Morning Star, a babylonian king, some creative interpretation by both Jewish and Christian early (slightly pre AD and early AD) writers, and a whole lot of fictionalization by later poets.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by driveway

Bull hooey.

If that were true we never would have been able to construct societies in the first place, we'd constantly be collapsing into chaos. The lessons of history are that humanity will always attempt to find and create some kind of stable order, the nature of that order will depend on the number of people and the environmental situation.

Humanity, at its core, is a reproductive engine. In a 'primitive' state we will do what is necessary to ensure our own survival. If you're going to declare that 'evil' then you have to call lions evil for eating their young, or female spiders evil for killing their mates.

I think Plato's Myth of the Metals offers some answer to that.

Left to their own devices and without societal norms to hold them down, many, many people would revert to being, essentially savages like in Lord of the Flies. These people tend to lack the spark of leadership or protection, and require control to function as a proper member of society... the bronzes.

Some people are naturally enforcers of rule. They look to someone to hand down these rules and they devote themselves to enforcing them... the silvers.

Some people are born to lead. These people are society builders, and they hand down the rules for the silvers to enforce on the bronzes. These are the golds.

Its fairly simplistic and has its share of holes, but I think this explanation of human behavior is valid. Isolate a group of people... without leadership and control, chaos ensues. Humanity at is core is not "evil", it is erratic and self-serving, and with that chaos and "evil acts" are found.

[Locke]

See, hes not such a bad guy, just a misunderstood and underpaid Celestial Civil Servant.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Not in the bible, but there's a mythology created by later writers such as Dante and Milton which basically serves as a back-story.

In the Old Testament, Satan was actually simply a servant of God, and is referred to in Jewish texts as the Accuser. Basically, a like a prosecuting attorney. He never acted against God's will, though he disagreed with God.
The name Lucifer is from Isaiah: Isaiah preaches against a villainous babylonian king, and at one point refers to him as Morningstar, which translates to Lucifer. Later interpretations somehow decided that Isaiah was speaking about a fallen angel, even though the passage is quite clearly talking about a mortal king, especially when given full context.

Basically, what we view as Satan/Lucifer today is a combination of a stories about a perfectly obedient angel who acted as a 'devil's advocate' for God, a Caananite myth about the Morning Star, a babylonian king, some creative interpretation by both Jewish and Christian early (slightly pre AD and early AD) writers, and a whole lot of fictionalization by later poets.

Can be he a devil's advocate if there was no devil at that time?.....

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Isolate a group of people... without leadership and control, chaos ensues. Humanity at is core is not "evil", it is erratic and self-serving, and with that chaos and "evil acts" are found.

I don't believe that's true at all, and I think there are myriad instances which disprove it. There are plenty of stories about people being isolated in tragic circumstances where chaos does not ensue, but rather people prove adept at organizing themselves in such a way as to ensure survival.

Trying to track down some research to back up my hypothesis, but all the papers I can find I have to pay for.

An example that comes to mind is the "Alive" story - yes people did horrible things to survive, but they didn't kill each other and they didn't descend into chaos.

In fact, the very philosophy you quote leads us to conclude that, in any isolated group there will probably be people of at least two, if not all three of the "metal" types, which would indicate that order would then be naturally asserted. Also, as far as I know there is nothing in that philosophy which indicates that people are incapable of transcending their 'type' in dire circumstances.

People need other people to survive, and the drive to survive is by far the most powerful instinct we have. It is in the best interest of an organism such as a human to maintain a functioning group dynamic in difficult or dangerous circumstances.

And to get back on topic, I don't hate Satan at all - he's doing awesome for me in my pool.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

And to get back on topic, I don't hate Satan at all - he's doing awesome for me in my pool

Me too and he was my last throw away pick

[maverickstruth]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Basically, what we view as Satan/Lucifer today is a combination of a stories about a perfectly obedient angel who acted as a 'devil's advocate' for God, a Caananite myth about the Morning Star, a babylonian king, some creative interpretation by both Jewish and Christian early (slightly pre AD and early AD) writers, and a whole lot of fictionalization by later poets.

Good post Octo.

If anyone's interested in this stuff gets a chance to see the BBC documentary "The Devil: An Unauthorized Biography - The Birth of Satan", it's quite well done and really interesting. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to dig up a copy online -- the only one that shows up is the similarly titled look at Marilyn Manson.

I did find this similar documentary (about 1hr long), which isn't bad for an overview, but the Unauthorized Biography is really fantastic.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by maverickstruth

Good post Octo.

If anyone's interested in this stuff gets a chance to see the BBC documentary "The Devil: An Unauthorized Biography - The Birth of Satan", it's quite well done and really interesting. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to dig up a copy online -- the only one that shows up is the similarly titled look at Marilyn Manson.

I did find this similar documentary (about 1hr long), which isn't bad for an overview, but the Unauthorized Biography is really fantastic.

I can just see the pitch....

"but your Evilness, agreeing to the film and allowing access will help show your side of the story"...

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by driveway

I don't believe that's true at all, and I think there are myriad instances which disprove it. There are plenty of stories about people being isolated in tragic circumstances where chaos does not ensue, but rather people prove adept at organizing themselves in such a way as to ensure survival.

Trying to track down some research to back up my hypothesis, but all the papers I can find I have to pay for.

An example that comes to mind is the "Alive" story - yes people did horrible things to survive, but they didn't kill each other and they didn't descend into chaos.

In fact, the very philosophy you quote leads us to conclude that, in any isolated group there will probably be people of at least two, if not all three of the "metal" types, which would indicate that order would then be naturally asserted. Also, as far as I know there is nothing in that philosophy which indicates that people are incapable of transcending their 'type' in dire circumstances.

People need other people to survive, and the drive to survive is by far the most powerful instinct we have. It is in the best interest of an organism such as a human to maintain a functioning group dynamic in difficult or dangerous circumstances.

And to get back on topic, I don't hate Satan at all - he's doing awesome for me in my pool.

You make some good points.

Perhaps that sentence wasn't clear, I'll try again. I meant that if you have a group of people that lacks natural leaders and guardians, chaos will ensue. Perhaps its an element of evolution that these people exist and in increasingly large numbers. Much of that evolution is based on centuries of learned societal norms. We've never truly been without them since the stone age. Even after the Fall of Rome, those "barbarians" were fairly sophisticated societies... or very soon became them.

Don't forget, the instinct to survive and thrive can easily lead to evil. In a world changing situation, it might be in my best interests to kill a couple rivals, rape and pillage and build my own junta. I am no longer accountable to any society. Unless its also in my best interests to help build a new society... depends on my personal priorities.

Frankly, I think due to what we know... anarchy is impossible to achieve now. Say there was a terrible plague and 5.99 billion people died, and all global governments ceased to exist. There would assuredly be pockets without any capable/competent/willing leader and they would more than likely descend into Lord of the Flies instinct fueled chaos and probably wipe themselves out. For many others, they would simply band together with their friends, families and allies into a group to protect themselves from roving gangs, consolidate resources and facilitate other social requirements. That group would likely try to make peaceful relations with neighboring groups to consolidate claims and for mutual protection. Before you know it, that alliance of groups forms something very closely resembling a modern republic.

[CaptainCrunch]

Father Kovak: Satan's greatest trick was convincing the world he doesn't exist.

[cyclone3483]

Originally Posted by octothorp

In the Old Testament, Satan was actually simply a servant of God, and is referred to in Jewish texts as the Accuser. Basically, a like a prosecuting attorney. He never acted against God's will, though he disagreed with God.

He did act against God's will. In the gospels of Mark and Matthew, Satan tempted Jesus in the desert, including Matthew 4 which chronicles Satan's attempt to get Jesus to worship him instead of God. In the 10th verse, Jesus says "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' " Satan was not worshipping God and was inciting others not to serve God, both clearly against God's will.

Moreso, in Luke 10, Jesus said, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you." The Lord's enemy is clearly Satan in this context and he was no longer a member of heaven's citizenry.

Please, if you are going to say something is in the Bible, you should provide the chapter so people can verify for themselves. Otherwise, it should be considered as potentially a lie or a misinterpretation.

[maverickstruth]

Originally Posted by cyclone3483

He did act against God's will. In the gospels of Mark and Matthew, Satan tempted Jesus in the desert, including Matthew 4 which chronicles Satan's attempt to get Jesus to worship him instead of God. In the 10th verse, Jesus says "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' " Satan was not worshipping God and was inciting others not to serve God, both clearly against God's will.

Moreso, in Luke 10, Jesus said, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you." The Lord's enemy is clearly Satan in this context and he was no longer a member of heaven's citizenry.

Please, if you are going to say something is in the Bible, you should provide the chapter so people can verify for themselves. Otherwise, it should be considered as potentially a lie or a misinterpretation.

I think Octothorp was saying that in the Old Testament, Satan never acted without God saying okay. That is an accurate statement -- in the Old Testament stories, Satan was always was God's servant, and always acted in accordance with what God said.

In New Testament times, Satan was seen as a force counter to God, you're right. That reflects that by the time the New Testament was written, attitudes and beliefs about Satan had changed significantly, most likely as a result of foreign influences.

[Bobblehead]

I hope textcritic sees this thread.