New Calgary transit fees.

[North East Goon]

Originally Posted by Ethaniel

Screw that North East Goon just park in the neighborhood on their streets.

Like Bobblehead said if there is an alternative to not paying at the best convenience to the person it will happen.

I'll do that for as long as I can get away with it. I hope my yearly pass to the zoo will allow me to park there daily - that would be sweet!

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by josh white

As large tax and user fee increases are being proposed in Calgary many residents are understandably concerned and upset. Many are asking: why, if 200,000 people have moved into the city in the past decade are these new tax revenues not covering the costs of their growing city? This is an excellent question.

Handy to push your agenda (and I say that respectfully, it's your job) but the fundamental question is wrong IMO. The revenues are more than sufficient to cover the costs of grwoth, they are not sufficient to cover growth of people AND massive growth in what the city decides it wants to do.

[Russic]

I understand the anger, but I really don't see this changing a whole lot of peoples minds. I think a lot of the people that are standing up and saying "well now I'm not taking the train for sure!" were never going to realistically take the train in the first place. I also think a lot of the people that are saying "this is going to make me stop taking the train" are going to drive to work only to realize that they need to pay a lot more than $3 to park downtown and then return to the loser-cruisers.

This morning I got on a train at the end of the line. By the third stop the car was completely full with people standing shoulder to shoulder. This increase will annoy a bunch of people, but I don't even think it'll put a dent in the # of riders.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Ethaniel

Once again this is not me that I am talking about Hulkrogan. Some people are in far worse shapes that what i described. Living week to week on a very strict budget. What about those people? What about the single mom with 2 kids and her husband died and life insurance paid off her house, but that is not enough and she has to get downtown to have a decent paying job to support her kids. Now she has 2 hours more childcare and is paying $900 more per month. I agree she has other options, but do you think a lot of people want to up and move just like that?

I got a great idea i think they should start charging full fare price for all travels in the core too. Get rid of the free fare zone and all those business people downtown would a brick over this.

So here's the question... Why doesn't she get rid of her car, thus saving her insurance, gas, parking etc?

Tough decisions. First, rent in the burbs is ridiculous, as are mortgages if that's what your single mom has. How about she moves to a less expensive neighbourhood? If she isn't in the burbs, why can't she take the bus to the train? If she is so fricken broke, why does she have a car and waste the gas money to drive to a train station anyway?

You know what? I'm broke. You know what I did? Moved. And I LOVED my apartment. Sometimes you have to sacrifice when you know you're stretched too thin. I'm sorry, but I don't feel sorry for your hypothetical broke person. There are ALWAYS ways to slash the budget and as I said, if she's thta broke, why is she DRIVING to take TRANSIT anyway?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

If you know about supply and demand, then you know if you raise the price of one good and don't raise the price of the replacement then more people will will shift to the replacement. Look up elasticity of demand curves (bud).

Then by your logic, we should start charging for every residential street that you will start parking on now, or raise the already-inflated downtown core parking prices, just to even things out? Good thing you're not a City planner; you'd be driving up inflation at a phenomenal rate.

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

And for every person who won't pay the fee there are 2 who will? BS. Because people really are fighting to pay more service fees so city employees (of which you are one, aren't you?) can lounge in your new fitness club.

You're right - people are going to completely abandon the Park 'N Ride system because you think people will be so outraged they won't show up for work anymore. Guess what? Parking lots that are hundred of dollars each month in the core, or charge over $20 per day are full on a daily basis. But $3! My goodness, the citizens won't have it. BS.

BTW, I'm as dumbfounded as you are about approving a new fitness gym; stop viewing City employees as evil, heartless scrooges.

[North East Goon]

Originally Posted by Russic

I understand the anger, but I really don't see this changing a whole lot of peoples minds. I think a lot of the people that are standing up and saying "well now I'm not taking the train for sure!" were never going to realistically take the train in the first place. I also think a lot of the people that are saying "this is going to make me stop taking the train" are going to drive to work only to realize that they need to pay a lot more than $3 to park downtown and then return to the loser-cruisers.

This morning I got on a train at the end of the line. By the third stop the car was completely full with people standing shoulder to shoulder. This increase will annoy a bunch of people, but I don't even think it'll put a dent in the # of riders.

It will not reduce the riders, but it will congest the businesses and communities surrounding every train stop - for sure. Thjey can keep making off-limit boundaries, but people will continue to find way's around this.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by FireFly

if she's thta broke, why is she DRIVING to take TRANSIT anyway?

Time.

If it would take the same amount of time to take the bus to the C-Train station then this would be a moot point. Unfortunately, when a 10-15 minute drive can take 40-45 minutes on the bus, that extra 30 minutes of time can be very important.

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

If you know about supply and demand, then you know if you raise the price of one good and don't raise the price of the replacement then more people will will shift to the replacement. Look up elasticity of demand curves (bud).

Agreed. But I tend to think of this issue in a different way. There is no free lunch. Somebody has to pay for the free parking. The opportunity cost of that parking lot owned by the city is not trivial. As someone concerned about the city's finances you should respect that this subsidy is an expenditure that the city can cut.

It is not designed to get more people to take transit I agree. But the parking lots are full because there is too much demand for free parking. The effects might likely be that more people will drive. But that is a separate issue.

The city is concerned with recouping its costs and this is a good way to do that.

If the city was concerned with congestion and people driving to work then that is a different analysis (and an important one).

And for every person who won't pay the fee there are 2 who will? BS. Because people really are fighting to pay more service fees so city employees (of which you are one, aren't you?) can lounge in your new fitness club.

This kind of opinion really ticks me off because it's so layman, simplistic and utterly unrealistic. Typical paint by numbers criticism: its easy to point to an apparent luxury and lambaste it as wasteful.

What you are missing is that the City is in active competition for talent in the labour market. When anyone with a pulse can get a job in Calgary you need to give incentives and compete with other firms to attract employees. Fitness clubs are one way of doing this. Other private firms do this, the City is in direct competition and thus feels they need to do this. If anything you, as a taxpayer, can look at that as an investment into the capacity of your city to provide the best planning, analysis and service delivery.

[The Ditch]

Some form of governing body already gets 39% of my income, I won't let them stop until they hit 100% then I will really be giving back to the community! Think of all the gyms we could have!

[Ethaniel]

Oh agree this will not decrease the number of people taking the train and the City knows it. My problem is how the City is spending this money and the fact that most people in homes that they own are going to be paying 9% more tax next year already. This value is pretty much over $100 as it is. Plus those of us that want to take public transportation are going to be paying an additional $900 for the year. Some people could be looking at paying $1100 more dollars next year compared to this. I hate to break it to you that is a lot of money. We are not talking $3 we are talking the average person that parks at a park and ride and takes the train is going to be seeing on average a $1000 increase in spending next year compared to this. Factor in the very reasonable raise of 5% to an average wage of 50,000 a year. This is an 2,631 dollar raise Gross. Take off the 30% tax they are looking at a 1,841.70 increase in net wage. Some people will be paying out on average 1000 more than this year so that leaves 841.70 dollars more a year Net. This is $70 bucks a month raise once you factor in what the City of Calgary is going to be charging you next year. Most people don't even see a 5% increase in Gross Wage and some see more, but it is almost not a raise once you factor in that the average cost of living in a year is going to be ~$1000.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

Handy to push your agenda (and I say that respectfully, it's your job) but the fundamental question is wrong IMO. The revenues are more than sufficient to cover the costs of grwoth, they are not sufficient to cover growth of people AND massive growth in what the city decides it wants to do.

Not sure what this means. What kinds of things? like provide recycling? new libraries? what?

Didn't know I had an "agenda".

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

You're right - people are going to completely abandon the Park 'N Ride system because you think people will be so outraged they won't show up for work anymore. Guess what? Parking lots that are hundred of dollars each month in the core, or charge over $20 per day are full on a daily basis. But $3! My goodness, the citizens won't have it. BS.

Nice comparison, but you're forgetting transit fees. If you drive downtown to park in an overly priced lot, you won't be paying the transit fees.

Won't completely counter your argument, but it will make the difference in cost a lot closer, and cause the 'comfort, time, flexibility, and convenience' argument to come more into play.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Time.

If it would take the same amount of time to take the bus to the C-Train station then this would be a moot point. Unfortunately, when a 10-15 minute drive can take 40-45 minutes on the bus, that extra 30 minutes of time can be very important.

Again there are options. Ride a bike, walk, (bus routs can be convoluted,) or move closer. Seems to me people would rather complain than find a solution to their problem.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by josh white

Not sure what this means. What kinds of things? like provide recycling? new libraries? what?

Didn't know I had an "agenda".

The first comment - sure, if you want to pick on recycling that's one.

The second, c'mon man. What would the byline on your editorial be? Josh White concerned citizen, or Josh white president of lobby group? Nothing wrong with that, but you can't pretend like it doesn't exist.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Then by your logic, we should start charging for every residential street that you will start parking on now, or raise the already-inflated downtown core parking prices, just to even things out? Good thing you're not a City planner; you'd be driving up inflation at a phenomenal rate.



You're right - people are going to completely abandon the Park 'N Ride system because you think people will be so outraged they won't show up for work anymore. Guess what? Parking lots that are hundred of dollars each month in the core, or charge over $20 per day are full on a daily basis. But $3! My goodness, the citizens won't have it. BS.

BTW, I'm as dumbfounded as you are about approving a new fitness gym; stop viewing City employees as evil, heartless scrooges.

Actually, I put those last questions in because I can see what people who are saying "Good, let the users pay for it" are getting at, and I agree with it to a point.

But I'm also playing devils advocate to a point for a few reasons.
1) I think the city is going crazy in tax hikes/user fees. And while generally I don' t like it but understand it, there are a number of uses of the money that I don't agree with. The user fees are diminishing the "quality of life" that seem to be the justification for much of this.
2) I really do think that much of the purpose of public transit should be to allow lower income people inexpensive transportation, that it should reduce the downtown traffic, or I myself use it when I'm going out for the night and don't think I should drive later. I believe all of these things are going to be adversely impacted by this action.

I work in the NE, I moved to the NE to be closer to work. This change will probably affect me less in a year than most regular users in a month. For years the campaign has been to leave the car at home, avoid traffic and take transit. But the principle of this fee just seems to run counter to those campaigns.

[Ethaniel]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Again there are options. Ride a bike, walk, (bus routs can be convoluted,) or move closer. Seems to me people would rather complain than find a solution to their problem.

So you are stating that the City of Calgary should have the right to force your decision to uproot your family? Wow.

Yes Bike and Walk -40 deg weather everyone wants to bike and walk potentially 5 - 6 blocks to get to the train. Not to mention again if she sells her vehicle how does she get her kids to daycare walk again? so another 6 blocks and you are taking kids out in that weather. 30 - 45 more minutes both ways is about 200 a day if you have 2 kids in childcare.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Nice comparison, but you're forgetting transit fees. If you drive downtown to park in an overly priced lot, you won't be paying the transit fees.

Won't completely counter your argument, but it will make the difference in cost a lot closer, and cause the 'comfort, time, flexibility, and convenience' argument to come more into play.

Downtown Parking: $20 (on average per day) x 20 work days = $400.

Park 'N Ride: $3(20 days) + $90 bus pass = $150.

Do the math.

If you can find a downtown parking spot for less than $150 per month, please inform the rest of us.

[The Ditch]

Does this mean that we can build a couple of new fancy pedways so I can walk to work a bit faster? Perhaps it could be offset by the tourism it would attract.

[Ethaniel]

Originally Posted by The Ditch

Does this mean that we can build a couple of new fancy pedways so I can walk to work a bit faster? Perhaps it could be offset by the tourism it would attract.

Sure but they need to have Toll Booths.

[Slava]

I don't take transit very often (and walk to the station when I do). But the whole "move closer" argument is a little shallow to me. The city builds these sub-divisions where they do and make a lot of money by doing so. I pay my taxes out there, and expect a certain level of service as a result....which to me seems fairly reasonable?

I don't think that someone with kids needs to live any closer to the Drop-In Center, Mustard Seed or crack cul-de-sac (to name a few choice locations) because the city can't appropriately plan their transit funding.