I Baptize Dead People

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

1. Mormons were hardly the first of last religion to practice polygamy and they abandoned it over a hundred years ago.
.

If anything, monogamy is an "invention".

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by flip

It is literally to keep them protected. If there is a nuclear holocaust then baptizing the dead is even more important because Armageddon is even closer. Seriously find the PBS doc called Mormons, it was 2 or 3 parts and absolutely fascinating.

So it's not about protecting historical documents at all. OK.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by flip

Although all the Mormons I've ever met have been great, fairly normal people, I must say there is a lot of weird culture, especially amongst the hardcore Mormons in Utah.

Not a particularly inclusive religion. Lots of underlying hatred of minorities and homosexuals. Weird covering up of their shoddy history including the Mountain Meadow Massacre and Joseph Smith being a shyster.

But like I said, with the exception of a few racists, all the Mormons I know are great people.

What do you mean by 'hardcore Mormons in Utah'?

I don't subscribe to the theory that the sins of the fathers are the sins of the sons so excuse me if I don't hold the transgressions of their past leaders against them as a group.

No religion is particularly inclusive, that was my point.

[Thor]

Great Documentary, definitely worth checking out, you can view online at http://www.pbs.org/mormons/

or PM me I can help you dl it.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

They have the permier genalogical library in the world which can be used by ANYONE for free. It's an exceptional resource for people who want to research their family history.

I'll just start off with I don't know anything about the cave thing, that's not really what I'm arguing.

But as far as the records go, isn't that kind of the jist of the article? That they are slowly making their own history that is different from the history we know. If they have the PREMIER genalogical library as you put it, and are baptizing people into the faith (for whatever reason they say, it doesn't matter, this is how it is feared it ends up in the records) there is a possibility their records will become the official story in 100-1000 years. And if not kept a close eye on by independent watchdogs, these people could be recorded as 'Mormon' and not Jewish. And then the history books will say: Millions of Mormons died in the holocaust...


'But since 2005, ongoing monitoring of the database by an independent Salt Lake City-based researcher shows both resubmissions and new entries of names of Dutch, Greek, Polish and Italian Jews.
The researcher, Helen Radkey, who has done contract work for the Holocaust group, said her research suggests that lists of Holocaust victims obtained from camp and government records are being dumped into the database. She said she has seen and recorded a sampling of several thousand entries that indicate baptisms had been conducted for Holocaust victims as recently as July.'


It feels like it's an effort to make a Mormon stamp on history or the world. Whether those fears are founded or not remains to be seen. But as I argued originally. Why bother making any entries or revisions at all? Why not leave the past in the past, and the dead the way they died?

[flip]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

So it's not about protecting historical documents at all. OK.

Well that might be it obviously. I was being kind of tongue in cheek with the whole Armageddon thing.

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

What do you mean by 'hardcore Mormons in Utah'?

I don't subscribe to the theory that the sins of the fathers are the sins of the sons so excuse me if I don't hold the transgressions of their past leaders against them as a group.

No religion is particularly inclusive, that was my point.

I just meant that there seems to be a rather large population of slightly more fundamentalist types in SLC. Maybe I'm wrong but that was the impression I've gotten from talking to people and learning about the religion.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Daradon

I'll just start off with I don't know anything about the cave thing, that's not really what I'm arguing.

But as far as the records go, isn't that kind of the jist of the article? That they are slowly making their own history that is different from the history we know. If they have the PREMIER genalogical library as you put it, and are baptizing people into the faith (for whatever reason they say, it doesn't matter, this is how it is feared it ends up in the records) there's something very wrong with it.

'But since 2005, ongoing monitoring of the database by an independent Salt Lake City-based researcher shows both resubmissions and new entries of names of Dutch, Greek, Polish and Italian Jews.
The researcher, Helen Radkey, who has done contract work for the Holocaust group, said her research suggests that lists of Holocaust victims obtained from camp and government records are being dumped into the database. She said she has seen and recorded a sampling of several thousand entries that indicate baptisms had been conducted for Holocaust victims as recently as July.'


It feels like it's an effort to make a Mormon stamp on history or the world. Whether those fears are founded or not remains to be seen. But as I argued originally. Why bother making any entries or revisions at all? Why not leave the past in the past, and the dead the way they died?

Yeah, I'm not advocating this practice at all. I understand it and I understand the arguments against it.

I'm arguing against the other crap that followed your original post, which invariably happens anytime Mormonism is mentioned.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Thor

Great Documentary, definitely worth checking out, you can view online at http://www.pbs.org/mormons/

or PM me I can help you dl it.

Cool! Thanks. I'll definitely be watching this one again.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by flip

Well that might be it obviously. I was being kind of tongue in cheek with the whole Armageddon thing.



I just meant that there seems to be a rather large population of slightly more fundamentalist types in SLC. Maybe I'm wrong but that was the impression I've gotten from talking to people and learning about the religion.

Yeah, you're wrong.

Yes, there's a lot more concentration in Utah, but they aren't anymore 'hardcore' than any other Mormons in the US or the world.

I thought you were referring to the groups led by the likes of Warren Jeffs that straddle the UT/AZ border. Not Mormons.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Yeah, you're wrong.

Yes, there's a lot more concentration in Utah, but they aren't anymore 'hardcore' than any other Mormons in the US or the world.

I thought you were referring to the groups led by the likes of Warren Jeffs that straddle the UT/AZ border. Not Mormons.

Really? How do you know? Does it not seem logical that the center of their religious universe might be home to a larger amount of "hardcore" Mormons.

Would the Vatican not be a likely place for a higher concentration of "hardcore" Catholics?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Thor

Great Documentary, definitely worth checking out, you can view online at http://www.pbs.org/mormons/

or PM me I can help you dl it.

Thanks! I was looking for that documentry since Flip mentioned it

[flip]

Originally Posted by Dion

Thanks! I was looking for that documentry since Flip mentioned it

It really is fantastic. Although it bashes the Mormons a little bit, it is fairly balanced with actual interviews with Mormons and such. I'm usually worried with that kind of stuff because it is either too sensitive to not make a group look bad or way too anti-whatever. This one however is pretty fair to the truth while not overly trying to degrade the religion.

Literally the best 4 hour religion class I've ever taken.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by flip

It really is fantastic. Although it bashes the Mormons a little bit, it is fairly balanced with actual interviews with Mormons and such. I'm usually worried with that kind of stuff because it is either too sensitive to not make a group look bad or way too anti-whatever. This one however is pretty fair to the truth while not overly trying to degrade the religion.

Literally the best 4 hour religion class I've ever taken.

I did go through thier 6 step program a few years back. Moreso to learn about their faith. Invited them into my home over the summer back in 2000. Interesting part came when they told me i could baptise my father who died 3 months earlier. It was the first time in my life that i wanted to toss a few people out the door on thier ear

I risisted the temptation and allowed them to continue. The next week they brought in the heavy weights in an effort to get me to join the church. Got some elder so pissed off at me that he was screaming - all because i challenged some of thier doctrine. He left in a huff

Overall it was a interesting learning experience. Got invited to a few homes for dinner and met some nice people. In the end i told them thanks but no thanks.

[driveway]

Weird facts about mormonism:

The book of mormon describes a civilization which covered North and South America, lasted for 1000 years and was familiar with such things as steel, elephants, wheeled vehicles, coins, wheat and barley.

The people of the Book of Mormon are described as devout Jews, yet there is no trace of their observance of Mosaic law, or even accurate knowledge thereof.

In 1981 several uses of the word 'white' were replaced with the word 'pure' in the Book of Mormon, following the Church's change in stance on the "curse" of the black race.

The 'curse' of the black race is that they are descended from Cain and their blackness is the 'mark' God laid upon him for murdering his brother. The Church abandoned this teaching in 1978.

Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, was killed in a gun battle, after having declared his candidacy for President and having himself crowned "King of the Kingdom of God".

Mormons who have been given their 'endowment' are expected to wear a special type of undergarment at all times.

Bizarre teachings of the Mormon Church:

God was once a human and has a tangible body of flesh and bone.
God lives on a planet near the star Kolob.
God has at least one wife "The Heavenly Mother" but she is so holy she is never to be discussed, nor prayed to.
We can become like God and rule over our own Universe.
The Garden of Eden was in the current state of Missouri.
Christ will not return to earth in any year we see a rainbow.
Mormons should avoid traveling on water, since Satan rules there.
Jesus and Satan are brothers.

All religions are weird - but some a weirder than others.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by flip

Really? How do you know? Does it not seem logical that the center of their religious universe might be home to a larger amount of "hardcore" Mormons.

Would the Vatican not be a likely place for a higher concentration of "hardcore" Catholics?

You need to clearly define 'hardcore' then, as I requested in the first place.

How do I know? I spent my youth in the Mormon church in close proximity to the area you referred to. Good enough for you?

[flip]

Originally Posted by Dion

I did go through thier 6 step program a few years back. Moreso to learn about their faith. Invited them into my home over the summer back in 2000. Interesting part came when they told me i could baptise my father who died 3 months earlier. It was the first time in my life that i wanted to toss a few people out the door on thier ear

I risisted the temptation and allowed them to continue. The next week they brought in the heavy weights in an effort to get me to join the church. Got some elder so pissed off at me that he was screaming - all because i challenged some of thier doctrine. He left in a huff

Overall it was a interesting learning experience. Got invited to a few homes for dinner and met some nice people. In the end i told them thanks but no thanks.

When guys on their mission come to my door I ALWAYS invite them in and talk about religion for a while. They always ask me to sign up for an orientation type deal and I always decline and tell them that I have no intention of changing my beliefs.

Usually they are happy to have some company for a while as they are usually from the Southern US. Never have they got mad at me for wasting their time but I often wonder if as they are leaving they are muttering under their breath that they almost had a sale. (sort of like Gil on the Simpsons)

[flip]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

You need to clearly define 'hardcore' then, as I requested in the first place.

How do I know? I spent my youth in the Mormon church in close proximity to the area you referred to. Good enough for you?

Yeah i didn't necessarily mean fundamentalist but rather people that follow all of the doctrine and practise to a t. I know several Mormons that think it is no big deal to have a cup of coffee or swear.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by driveway

Weird facts about mormonism:

The book of mormon describes a civilization which covered North and South America, lasted for 1000 years and was familiar with such things as steel, elephants, wheeled vehicles, coins, wheat and barley.

The people of the Book of Mormon are described as devout Jews, yet there is no trace of their observance of Mosaic law, or even accurate knowledge thereof.

In 1981 several uses of the word 'white' were replaced with the word 'pure' in the Book of Mormon, following the Church's change in stance on the "curse" of the black race.

The 'curse' of the black race is that they are descended from Cain and their blackness is the 'mark' God laid upon him for murdering his brother. The Church abandoned this teaching in 1978.

Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, was killed in a gun battle, after having declared his candidacy for President and having himself crowned "King of the Kingdom of God".

Mormons who have been given their 'endowment' are expected to wear a special type of undergarment at all times.

Bizarre teachings of the Mormon Church:

God was once a human and has a tangible body of flesh and bone.
God lives on a planet near the star Kolob.
God has at least one wife "The Heavenly Mother" but she is so holy she is never to be discussed, nor prayed to.
We can become like God and rule over our own Universe.
The Garden of Eden was in the current state of Missouri.
Christ will not return to earth in any year we see a rainbow.
Mormons should avoid traveling on water, since Satan rules there.
Jesus and Satan are brothers.

All religions are weird - but some a weirder than others.

Sources?

Some of that stuff is so ridiculously false it's not even funny.
Some of them are out of context.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by flip

Yeah i didn't necessarily mean fundamentalist but rather people that follow all of the doctrine and practise to a t. I know several Mormons that think it is no big deal to have a cup of coffee or swear.

Believe me...much coffee is consumed and swear words uttered in SLC by mormons.

[Cheese]

Its all a fact Dis...

Why we left...

What they are....

Mormonism includes many other unusual teachings.....

• God lives on a planet near the star Kolob.
• God ("Heavenly Father") has at least one wife, our "Mother in Heaven," but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her.
• Jesus was married.
• We can become like God and rule over our own universe.
• There are many gods, ruling over their own worlds.
• Jesus and Satan ("Lucifer") are brothers, and they are our brothers - we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father
• Jesus Christ was conceived by God the Father by having sex with Mary, who was temporarily his wife.
• We should not pray to Jesus, nor try to feel a personal relationship with him.
• In the highest degree of the celestial kingdom some men will have more than one wife.
• Before coming to this earth we lived as spirits in a "pre-existence", during which we were tested; our position in this life (whether born to Mormons or savages, or in America or Africa) is our reward or punishment for our obedience in that life.
• Dark skin is a curse from God, the result of our sin, or the sin of our ancestors. If sufficiently righteous, a dark-skinned person will become light-skinned.
• The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. All humanity before the Great Flood lived in the western hemisphere. The Ark transported Noah and the other survivors to the eastern hemisphere.
• Not only will human beings be resurrected to eternal life, but also all animals - everything that has ever lived on earth - will be resurrected and dwell in heaven.
• Christ will not return to earth in any year that has seen a rainbow.
• Mormons should avoid traveling on water, since Satan rules the waters.
• The sun receives its light from the star Kolob.
• If a Gentile becomes Mormon, the Holy Ghost actually purges his Gentile blood and replaces it with Israelite blood.
• A righteous Mormon will actually see the face of God in the Mormon temple.
• You can identify a false angel by the color of his hair, or by offering to shake his hand.

Ex-Mormon