Killer living wage - please, tax me more Calgary

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Metro Gnome

Minimum wage isn't meant to be "lived on". If you are a grown adult trying to get by on $8.40/hour (or worse, trying to raise a family on it), then you've probably made some pretty bad mistakes so far.

While I do agree with you in principal, minimum wage can in fact be "lived on." Even in Calgary.

$8.40 X 160 hours per month is $1344. Take off tax, CPP and EI and let's say you are now down to $1000. I just looked on rentfaster.ca and found 19 shared accomodations for $500 per month or less. Add $75 for a bus pass, and $300 for food and that still leaves you with $125/month for other things.

What so many people I see doing is saying that you cannot have your own place while working on minimum wage. That may be true. And I think most of us when we look back at our working minimum wage job days, it was often the situation with room mates that made us want to improve our situations.

But you are right, it isn't supposed to be a life long career choice to work for minimum wage. It's supposed to be for students, interns, and other people looking to break into better careers. I've taken crap jobs for low pay before; in order to be able to prove myself and get the better job once I showed I was worthy.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Then what's the problem with implementing one? The City will only have to support those necessary to meet that range, which is a rapidly declining number of minimum-wage earners in Calgary.

The problem doesn't exist when the 'living wage' floor is below or right around the wage floor dictated by current market conditions. The problem with implementing it at a time of record high real incomes is that in a future recession or a contraction in real incomes (ie very soon if not NOW) will decrease the wage floor offered by market forces and thus the 'living wage floor' will be higher and the city will either be forced to overpay to meet their labour requirements (And cheat taxpayers out of money at a time they need it more then ever) or simply hire less people and hurt employment numbers. Paying less people more will equal less work done and lower productivity than paying more people less at a time when they are willing to work for less out of economic necessity.

[kevman]

Question:

Who on the city workforce makes less than $13.25?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

The answer to these questions will likely determine that implementing this is a waste of taxpayer money.

I disagree. I believe a living wage policy will ultimately lead more Calgarians to less reliance on the Calgary Food Bank, the Drop-In Centre, and Brown Bagging for Calgary's Kids, The Salvation Army and other institutions as they have more financial power to escape otherwise poverty-stricken conditions.

I think it would theoretically have a positive net effect on this City.

However, that said, it would be ignorant to assume that people would spend that extra cash wisely. Not everyone is going to use a new raise to improve their living conditions on a long-term scale.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

The problem doesn't exist when the 'living wage' floor is below or right around the wage floor dictated by current market conditions. The problem with implementing it at a time of record high real incomes is that in a future recession or a contraction in real incomes (ie very soon if not NOW) will decrease the wage floor offered by market forces and thus the 'living wage floor' will be higher and the city will either be forced to overpay to meet their labour requirements (And cheat taxpayers out of money at a time they need it more then ever) or simply hire less people and hurt employment numbers. Paying less people more will equal less work done and lower productivity than paying more people less at a time when they are willing to work for less out of economic necessity.

That's an interesting take. Are salaries in Calgary actually getting lower even during a recession such as this? I doubt it. Perhaps there are layoffs and less pay raises, but I would love to see numbers that suggest Calgarians' salaries are contracting now, let alone in the future, especially given our phenomenal rate of growth.

That said, it makes it even more important to have a living wage increase so that people can keep up and help contribute to the city. I would say that minimum wage jobs are probably in the service and retail sectors, and if you haven't noticed yet, it's those industries in Calgary that are usually the ones in dire need of employees. Why not induct a living wage policy to help ease those numbers and improve the quality-of-living for these residents? Seems like a win-win for me.

Please keep in mind that "living wage" policy is not just for City employees; it's for employees in the private sector too.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by ken0042

While I do agree with you in principal, minimum wage can in fact be "lived on." Even in Calgary.

$8.40 X 160 hours per month is $1344. Take off tax, CPP and EI and let's say you are now down to $1000. I just looked on rentfaster.ca and found 19 shared accomodations for $500 per month or less. Add $75 for a bus pass, and $300 for food and that still leaves you with $125/month for other things.

What so many people I see doing is saying that you cannot have your own place while working on minimum wage. That may be true. And I think most of us when we look back at our working minimum wage job days, it was often the situation with room mates that made us want to improve our situations.

But you are right, it isn't supposed to be a life long career choice to work for minimum wage. It's supposed to be for students, interns, and other people looking to break into better careers. I've taken crap jobs for low pay before; in order to be able to prove myself and get the better job once I showed I was worthy.

is that..... i think it is!
personal responsibility and perseverance!


wow, you see it so rarely these days that i almost didn't recognize it anymore.

ps: you could easily eat very well on much less of a food budget.... if you know how to shop properly, cook and have some discipline/budgeting skills.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I disagree. I believe a living wage policy will ultimately lead more Calgarians to less reliance on the Calgary Food Bank, the Drop-In Centre, and Brown Bagging for Calgary's Kids, The Salvation Army and other institutions as they have more financial power to escape otherwise poverty-stricken conditions.

I think it would theoretically have a positive net effect on this City.

However, that said, it would be ignorant to assume that people would spend that extra cash wisely. Not everyone is going to use a new raise to improve their living conditions on a long-term scale.

But a greater reliance on government. I'd prefer the community to be helping these people, not the welfare state.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

ps: you could easily eat very well on much less of a food budget.... if you know how to shop properly, cook and have some discipline/budgeting skills.

I've always wondered if this in fact the case. I.e. I think a lot of people that live on so little have very good budgeting skills. Also there a tonne of people that make gazillions and have super cruddy budgeting skills and are in miles of debt. I guess what I'm saying is that, well, I don't think you can really imply anything about someone's "budgeting skills" - there are good, bad and ugly in both rich and poor.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

I've always wondered if this in fact the case. I.e. I think a lot of people that live on so little have very good budgeting skills. Also there a tonne of people that make gazillions and have super cruddy budgeting skills and are in miles of debt. I guess what I'm saying is that, well, I don't think you can really imply anything about someone's "budgeting skills" - there are good, bad and ugly in both rich and poor.

when it comes to a food budget, its not just being good with numbers. if you take reasonably priced ingredients and can only turn them into something that tastes like burnt cardboard it won't matter how disciplined you are... you'll either crack and splurge or go insane after a month.

but yea - just showing how minimum wage can be a living wage.

[burn_this_city]

Good to see the high and mighty crowd is down with living with strangers and eating cat food..

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

when it comes to a food budget, its not just being good with numbers. if you take reasonably priced ingredients and can only turn them into something that tastes like burnt cardboard it won't matter how disciplined you are... you'll either crack and splurge or go insane after a month.

but yea - just showing how minimum wage can be a living wage.

Sure, but this situation can apply to those that are rich or poor. I know of individuals who were quite rich but couldn't cook so ordered take out for virtually every meal.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Good to see the high and mighty crowd is down with living with strangers and eating cat food..

had to do it in college - don't see what's so bad.

try a vegetarian diet (i'm a vegetarian anyway so it helps) with rice and dehydrated beans as a staple and you'll see how little you actually need to spend on food while still having a healthy diet.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

when it comes to a food budget, its not just being good with numbers. if you take reasonably priced ingredients and can only turn them into something that tastes like burnt cardboard it won't matter how disciplined you are... you'll either crack and splurge or go insane after a month.

but yea - just showing how minimum wage can be a living wage.

People often crack because they don't know how to cook. I did in my younger years by eating out a lot. Now that i have the cooking skills i'd rather eat at home.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

That's an interesting take. Are salaries in Calgary actually getting lower even during a recession such as this? I doubt it. Perhaps there are layoffs and less pay raises, but I would love to see numbers that suggest Calgarians' salaries are contracting now, let alone in the future, especially given our phenomenal rate of growth.

I don't know if you've been paying attention or not to a lot of the real estate companies that own and are building some of our cities new residential and commercial developments currently under construction right now. A lot of them are of a going concern in the FIRST HALF of 2009 (Especially those that have income exposure in other markets in Canada and the US). There are 'prominent' or 'high profile' projects that might not ultimately be completed as envisoned or even at all. We aren't immune, and our 'phenomenal rate of growth' is honestly yesterday's news. It's flat out incompetence to drive on fiscally and ignore these warning signs.

There are going to be more and more holes in the ground put on hold mid-construction. That's a lot of construction workers that are going to be laid off pronto. I think unemployment falls under 'lower salaries' don't you?

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Good to see the high and mighty crowd is down with living with strangers and eating cat food..

Who mentioned cat food?

I'll admit I showed rental situations where you might have to meet the person you are boarding with, but really- are you saying that there are no other room mate situations that exist?

Most people I know lived with room mates at one time or another. I've also had room mates that I didn't know well before moving in with them. That's why you check things out and see what the situation is.

I don't think one can be considered "high and mighty" if they have lived that life themselves.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by kevman

Question:

Who on the city workforce makes less than $13.25?

I'm kind of wondering that myself.

Maybe people in the city hall cafeteria?

I don't think there are many on the payroll who will need a raise to get to that 13.25. There might be a few though. I don't know. It can't be many.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Who mentioned cat food?

I'll admit I showed rental situations where you might have to meet the person you are boarding with, but really- are you saying that there are no other room mate situations that exist?

Most people I know lived with room mates at one time or another. I've also had room mates that I didn't know well before moving in with them. That's why you check things out and see what the situation is.

I don't think one can be considered "high and mighty" if they have lived that life themselves.

I was mostly just being a ######.. It wouldnt be the worst existence in the world. It just hard to cover dental or anything else with $125 a month. You would be eeking out a really tough living on minimum wage.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Muta

If wage goes up to a minimum $13.25 an hour, I will promptly be asking my employer to raise my hourly rate to match that. I am a certain % over the minimum wage (as is everybody), and my salary should reflect that... so should yours.

Joe Downtown Worker who makes 600% of minimum wage shouldn't expect to go from $51/hour to $79.50/hour and you shouldn't expect to get an increase in pay either.

Originally Posted by kevman

Question:

Who on the city workforce makes less than $13.25?

I know in 1999 when I almost took a job with City Parks and Rec for the summer it was already $13 to lean on a shovel.

[Azure]

Such a wage would only work in Alberta...because of the huge job demand. But, having said that, I still thinks a bad idea. Slowly increase it....not a insane jump like that so sudden.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Azure

Such a wage would only work in Alberta...because of the huge job demand. But, having said that, I still thinks a bad idea. Slowly increase it....not a insane jump like that so sudden.

Not to mention that a large increase would cause a lot of small businesses to close shop.