Should Alberta separate?

[octothorp]

I have some serious questions for the pro-separatists out there:

1: Do you believe that the problem with Alberta's role in Canada is linked to any particular party (the liberals), or to the nature of the country? The liberals are often blamed for alienating the west with NEP and such, but in 1980, Clark's minority government came up with a budget that would have been equally devestating to Alberta, had it been put in place--of course, Clark got the non-confidence heave-ho. Given that, do you trust the current conservative party to fairly represent the west?

2: What would your ideal western republic be? Alberta? Alberta and BC? Alberta, BC, Sask, Manitoba, etc. Keep in mind issues like the traditionally left-wing roots of other provinces. Would you want to be in a nation where the balance of power rests with the BC lower mainland?

3: What do you feel the strongest allegience to? Your country? Your region? Your province? Your city? Your self? How big a role does the allegiance play in your desires for separation?

4: What do you believe it will take, realistically, for Western Canadians or Albertans to embrace separation? How can Western Canadians become united behind the idea of separation when their first priority is supporting the Conservatives to battle the liberals?

5: Are you overall in favour of Quebec's right to separate, or against it? Do you view the situations of the two provinces as similar, or different? How so?


Any thoughts to any of these questions would be greatly appreciated. I'm actually writing a novel in which political separation is an underlying theme, and though I come from the heartland of western alienation, I would still like some insights as to how this belief works.

[CaptainCrunch]

To be honest Octothorpe, I'm not sure if I'm pro-separatist, or if I'm more interested in seeing the tabling of a separatist agenda to see what the reaction from Ottawa would be, but I'll try and answer your questions.

1: Do you believe that the problem with Alberta's role in Canada is linked to any particular party (the liberals), or to the nature of the country? The liberals are often blamed for alienating the west with NEP and such, but in 1980, Clark's minority government came up with a budget that would have been equally devestating to Alberta, had it been put in place--of course, Clark got the non-confidence heave-ho. Given that, do you trust the current conservative party to fairly represent the west?

I don't believe that its that simple. I think the real problem is that Alberta feels alienated by the fact that Federalism orbits around Ontario and Quebec. I don't think that you can link the Conservatives under Joe Clark or even Brian Mulrooney to the current Conservatives under Harper. Basically the Conservatives back then were very much like the Liberals in that they were more of a central Canadian party then anything else. To be completely honest right at the moment there are no national parties, the Conservatives are seen as an Western Canadian Party, whereas the Liberals really don't give too craps about anything west of Manitoba as long as the cheques keep coming in. there is a real strong disconnect between Eastern and Western Canada. We don't understand each other, and to be honest there's a negative relationship, however a Conservative government even a minority would certainly reduce the anger that Alberta is feeling towards Ottawa at the moment. Another Liberal mandate will probably cause a increase in seperatist sentiment in Alberta and Sask.

2: What would your ideal western republic be? Alberta? Alberta and BC? Alberta, BC, Sask, Manitoba, etc. Keep in mind issues like the traditionally left-wing roots of other provinces. Would you want to be in a nation where the balance of power rests with the BC lower mainland?

This is a great question, ideally anything west of Manitoba would be ideal, however, if we were to go on our own, it would probably be Alberta alone, or Alberta and Sask alone. Any seperation would take a long time anyways as your designing a whole new system of government.

3: What do you feel the strongest allegience to? Your country? Your region? Your province? Your city? Your self? How big a role does the allegiance play in your desires for separation?

I have a strong allegience to my country, but I no longer have a allegience to the people running it. Preferably I would like to see a fairer form of government in place that would address the needs of every segment of the nation. Like I mentioned I'm wait and see on the whole seperatist agenda, I'm basing it around the next election, and I'm certainly not alone in that sentiment.

I'd like to see Canada work, its a great country with great people, its run by criminals and fools tho.

4: What do you believe it will take, realistically, for Western Canadians or Albertans to embrace separation? How can Western Canadians become united behind the idea of separation when their first priority is supporting the Conservatives to battle the liberals?


Honestly if you see a Liberal win of any kind, I think you'll see a big boost to the separatist movement in Alberta, because it will become apparent that no matter how much we support the Conservatives, the East won't, and thus we're never going to get a fair shake.

5: Are you overall in favour of Quebec's right to separate, or against it? Do you view the situations of the two provinces as similar, or different? How so?

I'm actually in favour of it. If we are going to call ourselves a democratic nation, then we have to accept the right of Quebec citizens to choose thier own destiny. However if your going to leave, then you can't have the passports, MP's or use our money. If your going to become a seperate country then become a separate country.

Jus my two cents.

[kn]

One of the main factors that exacerbates regionalism is our antiquated electoral system. There are small 'l' liberals in Alberta just as there are small 'c' conservatives in Ontario and Quebec. Unfortunately, our first-past-the-post system hides these distinctions. In one sense it enables an efficient parliament when a majority is elected. However, I would argue the regional tensions it creates is a major drawback. Some political will in implementing proportional representation would go a long way in minimizing regionalism but it will never happen since governments will never change the system that just got them elected.

The call for separation among some Albertans is reactionary and nothing new. The closest thing we came to was the Western Canada Concept during the NEP but that was far from enabling separation. I do agree that Alberta should follow Quebec's example and use its leverage (oil revenues) in getting changes in Ottawa.

Albertans have always wanted to change the system from within. Ontario and Quebec may have the population but Albertans want to see some political power commensurate with our economic might. Institutional changes would go a long way there such as an elected Senate or even having the PM appoint the senators we elect but these relatively simple changes are rejected by central Canada.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

personally I would be in favour of an American style senate, however just how the powers would work would definately have to be arranged differently. The fact we're a Westminster Democracy, and not an Electorial College Republic would make that fact obvious that it would be different.

[kn]

Originally posted by octothorp@May 1 2005, 04:01 PM
I have some serious questions for the pro-separatists out there:

1: Do you believe that the problem with Alberta's role in Canada is linked to any particular party (the liberals), or to the nature of the country? The liberals are often blamed for alienating the west with NEP and such, but in 1980, Clark's minority government came up with a budget that would have been equally devestating to Alberta, had it been put in place--of course, Clark got the non-confidence heave-ho. Given that, do you trust the current conservative party to fairly represent the west?

2: What would your ideal western republic be? Alberta? Alberta and BC? Alberta, BC, Sask, Manitoba, etc. Keep in mind issues like the traditionally left-wing roots of other provinces. Would you want to be in a nation where the balance of power rests with the BC lower mainland?

3: What do you feel the strongest allegience to? Your country? Your region? Your province? Your city? Your self? How big a role does the allegiance play in your desires for separation?

4: What do you believe it will take, realistically, for Western Canadians or Albertans to embrace separation? How can Western Canadians become united behind the idea of separation when their first priority is supporting the Conservatives to battle the liberals?

5: Are you overall in favour of Quebec's right to separate, or against it? Do you view the situations of the two provinces as similar, or different? How so?


Any thoughts to any of these questions would be greatly appreciated. I'm actually writing a novel in which political separation is an underlying theme, and though I come from the heartland of western alienation, I would still like some insights as to how this belief works.

I wouldn't consider myself pro-separatist but I wouldn't reject it out of hand.

1: Do you believe that the problem with Alberta's role in Canada is linked to any particular party (the liberals), or to the nature of the country? The liberals are often blamed for alienating the west with NEP and such, but in 1980, Clark's minority government came up with a budget that would have been equally devestating to Alberta, had it been put in place--of course, Clark got the non-confidence heave-ho. Given that, do you trust the current conservative party to fairly represent the west?

It's primarily linked to the nature of our electoral system. I trust the Conservative Party of Canada to represent western concerns.

2: What would your ideal western republic be? Alberta? Alberta and BC? Alberta, BC, Sask, Manitoba, etc. Keep in mind issues like the traditionally left-wing roots of other provinces. Would you want to be in a nation where the balance of power rests with the BC lower mainland?

In terms of political culture, north-south divisions are more similar than east-west. The 49th parallel is artificial. Vancouver has more in common with the Pacific Northwest than it does with St. John's. Calgary has more in common with Montana than it does with Toronto. I suspect a new electoral system would try and represent affiliations in a better way but I doubt the other western provinces are really interested in separation.

3: What do you feel the strongest allegience to? Your country? Your region? Your province? Your city? Your self? How big a role does the allegiance play in your desires for separation?

It depends entirely on the context. In Alberta, I'm a Calgarian. In Canada, I'm an Albertan. Abroad, I'm Canadian. I'm proud to be all three although I am sick and tired of Ottawa.

4: What do you believe it will take, realistically, for Western Canadians or Albertans to embrace separation? How can Western Canadians become united behind the idea of separation when their first priority is supporting the Conservatives to battle the liberals?

It will take much more than anything we've ever seen to date. Current corruption doesn't touch what the NEP did to the hearts and minds of Albertans and that wasn't enough to bring about anything close to separation. I can't think of an example strong enough that would galvanize westerner or Albertans to a sufficient degree.

5: Are you overall in favour of Quebec's right to separate, or against it? Do you view the situations of the two provinces as similar, or different? How so?

I am in favour of Quebec's separatist aims. I see the provinces as similar but Alberta as politically immature. We should follow Quebec's example in dealing with Ottawa.[B]

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by kn@May 1 2005, 10:51 PM


The call for separation among some Albertans is reactionary and nothing new.

It's also one of the reasons people in the east won't vote for the Reform party (in any name). The reactionary element is a real turn off for people who like stability.

[Mike F]

A few additions:

1. No province in Canada can unilaterally separate. The most that can ever happen is that a province can hold a referendum, and if a clear majority of citizens vote on a clear question to separate then there is an obligation for the Feds and the province to enter into good faith negotiations.

2. If Alberta were to separate, at international law it would not be a party to any of Canada's international agreements -- so no part of NAFTA or any other treaties.

3. Here in BC there is nothing remotely close to a majority of people who would want to separate. An given how dependant the Territories are on the Feds there is no way they separate either. If Alberta were to go, it would go alone.

The result:

Well, in Alberta you have a new Country, completely landlocked, surrounded of 3 sides by a coultry you just flipped off, and the US to the south. You have to completely redo all trade agreements and while you've got oil to offer you're behind the 8 ball in virtually every other respect -- you can only trade with these 2 countries, Canada doesn't really need the oil that badly, and while he US does they know a country bent over a barrell when they see one.

It's not exactly all kicks and giggles

[Jake]

Originally posted by MarchHare@May 1 2005, 09:52 AM

Yes, it's so completely unfair and undemocratic that a province with 40% of Canada's population gets 40% of the representation in Parliament while poor Alberta's share is only 10%, seeing as only 10% of Canadians live in this province.

And what percentage of Canada's GDP is because of Alberta? I'll bet its over 10%.

I think its alittle undemocratic that in the 2000 election the Liberal's recieved 40% of the votes, yet were rewarded with 57% of the seats in the House of Commons. Or how about the 1997 election when the conservatives got 18.8% of the vote and only recieved 6% of the seats.

And my personal favorite, in 1993 when the Conservatives recieved 16% of the votes and got a whopping 2 seats (0.007% of seats)!!! The 2004 election ended up with fair results, but I prefer Sweden's voting method to ours (% vote = % seats).

As for seperating I'm against it. If BC would seperate with us, I'd be for it (that won't happen). I'm not as worried about running out of oil, as someone previously said, I'm much more worried about oil prices. If they fall our entire economy will also... hopefully our new budgets focus on diversification in industry will help alittle. See what happened Venezuela...

If we did seperate it would make for a more interesting World Cup, especially if BC seperated also. Alberta and BC vs. Canada.

[MarchHare]

And what percentage of Canada's GDP is because of Alberta? I'll bet its over 10%.

What does that have to do with anything? You're not seriously proposing some kind of "representation by economic impact" system, are you?

And my personal favorite, in 1993 when the Conservatives recieved 16% of the votes and got a whopping 2 seats (0.007% of seats)!!!

I think you need to check your math. The PC party had two out of 295 seats in 1993, or 0.7%, not 0.007.

[RougeUnderoos]

Whatever happened to Alec Baldwin?

A separated Alberta wouldn't do too bad if we worked it right. Imagine if you will a rusty and dull red, white and blue corkscrew inserted, by force, into your nether regions. Sure it hurts in the beginning, and forever until you die, but you can get over it. The human spirit and Alberta's "Can Do" attitude can get past most anything.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Mike F@May 1 2005, 11:30 PM


2. If Alberta were to separate, at international law it would not be a party to any of Canada's international agreements -- so no part of NAFTA or any other treaties.

And you can bet that Montana would immediately divert the St. Mary and Milk Rivers. They've been looking for a way out of that treaty for a long time. (They did get the shaft on that deal I must admit).

Without irrigation for the south, Alberta's ag industry would crash.

[Resolute 14]

1: Do you believe that the problem with Alberta's role in Canada is linked to any particular party (the liberals), or to the nature of the country? The liberals are often blamed for alienating the west with NEP and such, but in 1980, Clark's minority government came up with a budget that would have been equally devestating to Alberta, had it been put in place--of course, Clark got the non-confidence heave-ho. Given that, do you trust the current conservative party to fairly represent the west?

Well, first of all, what a different encarnation of the Conservative Party tried to do do 25 years ago is not relevant to the makeup of the current CPC. Doubly so if you believe that the new CPC is simply the Alliance in different colours. If that were true, then it is a completely different party. It would be like blaming the Liberals for an NDP government's ills.

However, no, I dont believe the problems are party based. The problems are rooted in Confederation itself. Any party that wants to govern has to pander to Ontario. Period. While the CPC might toss Alberta bone by accepting our democratically elected senators, they simply could not accomplish the sort of changes that would give Alberta/the West a voice within Confederation as Ontario would very quickly boot them out of office. The CPC would ultimately have to cave to Ontario's wishes if it wants to remain in power past one term.

The only way to heal the inequities within Canada is to remake confederation. The complete disenfranchisement of fully a third of this nation is something that needs to be looked at, but barring an impetus from Ontario to do so, it will never happen. Thus, it becomes in Alberta's best interest to shield itself from Canada as much as possible. The most extreme form of shielding is seperation.

2: What would your ideal western republic be? Alberta? Alberta and BC? Alberta, BC, Sask, Manitoba, etc. Keep in mind issues like the traditionally left-wing roots of other provinces. Would you want to be in a nation where the balance of power rests with the BC lower mainland?

Ideally, the entire West. British Columbia through Manitoba. It isnt very likely, unless Alberta could convince those provinces - BC in particular - that they are better off with us than with Ontario. Within Confederation, I would like to see these four provinces work much more closely on pressuring the federal government. Independantly, Alberta is only 10% of the population. As a bloc, the west is nearly a third of the population.

I would disagree that the balance of power would rest with the lower mainland, however. The Calgary-Edmonton corridor is easily it's match in population and economic impact.

3: What do you feel the strongest allegience to? Your country? Your region? Your province? Your city? Your self? How big a role does the allegiance play in your desires for separation?

To myself first. After that, I am an Albertan before I am a Canadian. I would suggest your last question is backwards. My allegiance to Alberta before Canada is the result of my disenfranchisement and the lack of respect with which Alberta/the west is treated to within Canada. My growing support for seperation is a function of that. It's difficult to believe in a nation that doesnt believe in you.

4: What do you believe it will take, realistically, for Western Canadians or Albertans to embrace separation? How can Western Canadians become united behind the idea of separation when their first priority is supporting the Conservatives to battle the liberals?

Time and a catalyst. Every time Ottawa displays it's arrogant disregard for Westerners - ie: Martin's choices for Alberta's Senators, this discontent will grow. Another NEP would do a lot to channel Alberta's/the west's discontent into a drive towards independence.

5: Are you overall in favour of Quebec's right to separate, or against it? Do you view the situations of the two provinces as similar, or different? How so?

So long as Quebec fairly negotiates it's divorce, I have no problem with them leaving.

[Flame On]

I asked earlier but no one responded from the seperatist side, what happens when a region of the New Alberta decides "hey we're more liberal than conservatives are allowing us to be, where are we represented" do they tantrum out of the new nation?
As for diversity, BS! The provinces diversity is still either directly or indirectly mostly associated with oil. What other sources do we have, oh yeah say by by to almost every company head office that's moved here, who's deals are wtih a stable canada not some snot nosed fledgling country that's going to have to raise taxes to deliver the same services.
What happens when Edmonton realises they actually produce the oil and that all we are is admin here in Calgary. Do they want to annex us?

[The Goon]

I may be a little off on the details, but I recall that when the Quebec separation question came up in 1995, Native Canadian leaders there said that they still had control over their land, and would choose to stay in Canada.

What would happen with Native Canadians and territory in Alberta in the event of separation?

[Thunderball]

Originally posted by octothorp@May 1 2005, 04:01 PM

1: Do you believe that the problem with Alberta's role in Canada is linked to any particular party (the liberals), or to the nature of the country? The liberals are often blamed for alienating the west with NEP and such, but in 1980, Clark's minority government came up with a budget that would have been equally devestating to Alberta, had it been put in place--of course, Clark got the non-confidence heave-ho. Given that, do you trust the current conservative party to fairly represent the west?

I think its more regionalism than anything else, and Ontario holds the cards. The Liberals simply chase the "median" voter, which is always in Ontario. Liberals were definitely the worst at outright alienating Alberta (and Western Canada), but its not a party thing so much. I think the current Conservative party will fairly represent the West, at least at first. I can see them shifting to being pro-Median Voter, like the Liberals and alienate their power base. Lets not forget the Progressive Party was a Calgary based party too.

2: What would your ideal western republic be? Alberta? Alberta and BC? Alberta, BC, Sask, Manitoba, etc. Keep in mind issues like the traditionally left-wing roots of other provinces. Would you want to be in a nation where the balance of power rests with the BC lower mainland?

Ideally, BC, Alberta and Saskatchewan. Sask is almost 50/50 left-right as demonstrated by their last election, and everywhere outside the Lower Mainland tends to be very right wing. Plus, Campbell Liberals are pretty much Klein Conservatives, except Ralph calls a cab (bad joke, I know). I don't think the Lower Mainland would hold the balance as much as one would think. Not only does Greater Calgary and the Capital Region outweigh them in citizens, but they aren't all lefties there either, just like how Calgary and Edmonton have their left leanings.
In the "Republic of Western Canada" I would forsee the power being firmly in three cities, Vancouver as the Port, Calgary as the Economic Capital, and Edmonton (yes, Edmonton) as the Capital. Victoria, Regina and Saskatoon would be the second tier.

3: What do you feel the strongest allegience to? Your country? Your region? Your province? Your city? Your self? How big a role does the allegiance play in your desires for separation?

I'd say my strongest allegience is to City and Province. I also consider myself a Canadian Nationalist... not a patriot. The difference is I believe in the greatness the country could have, not blindly loving the country no matter what. Since I love Alberta first, Canada second... if Canada can't achieve its greatness, I'd rather not be a part of it.

4: What do you believe it will take, realistically, for Western Canadians or Albertans to embrace separation? How can Western Canadians become united behind the idea of separation when their first priority is supporting the Conservatives to battle the liberals?

Excellent question. I think Westerners have to feel truly defeated and subjudgated. That, or they need Quebec to leave first. If Quebec leaves, it'll change everything. Quebec's succession means the Canada we know is gone, and its time for everyone to re-evaluate. With Quebec gone, Ontario will be the majority and will make Canada's image completely theirs, and I think that scares Westerners more than Harper scares the East. If Ontario runs the show, visions of NEP will run in their heads. I think Separation is a universally understood Plan B. No one wants a Separatist gov't... yet they expect the PCs to walk away if things become too unbearable.

5: Are you overall in favour of Quebec's right to separate, or against it? Do you view the situations of the two provinces as similar, or different? How so?

I think Quebec has every right to leave. Nothing in Confederation says that they can't freely leave if their populace says so, unlike in the United States. Quebec and Alberta's situations are similar and different. I think if the two Premiers sat down, they'd see they have a lot in common. Quebec's is more of being culturally and socially different. While one can prove through social indicators that Alberta is distinct within Canada, our case is more economic and political. That being said, both provinces have a fundamental problem with the way Canada treats them, and if they worked together, they might be able to put enough pressure on the rest of Canada to get change that would keep them in confederation. Sadly, even change in the system can't solve the societal schisms, but it would be a start.

[Winsor_Pilates]

I can't believe this post even exists.
Everytime I here Albertans talk about seperation I just have to laugh.
What is so bad about our deal in Alberta, Canada?
We're the richest province in the Country, in a city that is constantly named one of the best in the world and I think alot of people let that go to their heads.
It's like people just need something to complain about cuz they have no real problems.
And please tell me how you seperatists keep equating Quebec's want to seperate with Alberta? Quebec doesn't want the same Canada or government as Albertans. The two are more opposed than they are with Ont.
And things that the Libs do like the Adscam are not shots at Alberta, they are shots at all of Canada.
I'm reading alot of ra ra pro Alberta here, but no real examples of what the rest of the country has done to wrong us. Please explain to me what is soo bad about Alberta's deal right now?

[MarchHare]

Please explain to me what is soo bad about Alberta's deal right now?

Either:

1. Ontario has 40% of the population and thus a corresponding number of seats in the house, and they don't like the same conservative politicians that Albertans do.

or

2. The Liberal Party is nothing but a group of criminals stealing from Canadians and the only reason for 1) is because they lie and use fear-mongering tactics.

That's my best guess, at least. I personally love living in Alberta and think we have it great here...but then again, I'm a brain-washed kool-aid drinking Liberal supporter...

[HOZ]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates@May 2 2005, 04:26 AM
I can't believe this post even exists.
Everytime I here Albertans talk about seperation I just have to laugh.
What is so bad about our deal in Alberta, Canada?
We're the richest province in the Country, in a city that is constantly named one of the best in the world and I think alot of people let that go to their heads.
It's like people just need something to complain about cuz they have no real problems.
And please tell me how you seperatists keep equating Quebec's want to seperate with Alberta? Quebec doesn't want the same Canada or government as Albertans. The two are more opposed than they are with Ont.
And things that the Libs do like the Adscam are not shots at Alberta, they are shots at all of Canada.
I'm reading alot of ra ra pro Alberta here, but no real examples of what the rest of the country has done to wrong us. Please explain to me what is soo bad about Alberta's deal right now?

The Alberta gov't tightened their belt way back in 93-94 to cut costs to start paying the largest debt of any province in Canada. That debt was largely due to the Federal Liberal Party's raping of Alberta with the NEP. The NEP sucked the life out of this province. If you don't remember I suggest you talk to your parents or grandparents about what happened here. The economy was so bad that successive Alberta Gov't overspent in vain attempts to get the economy going.

Klein turned Alberta around with his cuts in programs and gov't waste. In the 90's Alberta was paying off it's debt, not just balancing the budget, without much income coming from the Oilpatch....as it was devastated. Witht he turnaround in oil prices the paying off the debt accelerated and eventually was complete. Trust me..the only thing we can thank the Federal Gov't for is releasing Alberta fromthe NEP.....Conservative Gov't that is.

Now a VERY corrupt, bigotted, lying over and over and over again, money stealing group of Liberals want to bring in a SUPERCHARGED version of the NEP. Trust me, when they do...not if, you'll be looking for a place to live in another province because there will be no jobs here.

Now, supposedly, the 'Liberal' Gov't of Canada is suppose to represent the entire country...protect us...help us. Yet we see them bend over backwards to give Ontario loopholes to drive GMC trucks through....yet surprisingly...Alberta looks to be set to be bent over the railing for 'another go'. Go figure. I can really understand why people don't want to continue to be serfs to Ontario and Quebec.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@May 1 2005, 09:17 PM
Besides it shows shortsighted ness to believe that Alberta only has Oil.# Oil is a big basis for our economy, but as its been pointed out, Alberta has spent a lot of money to diversify its base so we're not dependant on it.

This diversification point has been used several times to support the notion that Alberta is 'economically self-sufficient', even if Oil goes down the tubes.

I'd really like to know how much of this is reality, and how much of it is wishful thinking. I believe a _lot_ of our diversification has been within the petroleum industry, in areas like land management, pipeline construction, petroleum-processing, etc. Sure there are other sectors, but something makes me think that these sectors are here-because-of and dependent-on cash running through the province. That cash comes from massive oil profits/royalties.

I once heard an econ professor say that when we had a Toyota plant in Alberta, then we'd be sufficiently diversified to actually think about independence.

I think people want to believe we're not nearly as dependent on oil as we are.

Anyone know exactly how much oil revenues the province accrued last year? As a percentage of total income? What's second and third place? I bet its enough to show that we're not even closed to 'diversified', and we're probably a long way from fully living up to that hope.

edit: Started doing some research on the nature of Alberta's economy and the impact oil has on it. Did you know that the three largest importers of our 'goods' are New York, Illinois, and Washington states? Don't know how relevant it is, but I thought it was interesting.

[Resolute 14]

A simple question, March and Winsor:

What has Canada contributed to Alberta's success?

Is our province and city great because of the hard work of the people of Canada, as represtented by Ottawa, or the people of Alberta?

Flame On - That is one of the aspects of seperation that would need to be negotiated.

Your hypothetical is extremely simplistic. As much as you may wish it were so, this is not a fight because we are Conservative and they are Liberal. This is a fight because we have no voice whatsoever at the federal level. So long as a Western Republic ensured that the voices of all of it's citizens are fairly represented, then simply being Liberal minded in a Conservative country would not be the impetus for seperation.

Of course, the Klien PC's could make a strong statment in that direction by reforming the political electoral system as well...