5 shot in Mirage nightclub in Calgary

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by Muta

Shows how little I know about farming. Although, even with a high-powered pellet gun, that can kill / injure / scare away a coyote, can it not?

Coyotes are not dumb animals. Your lucky enough to kill a coyote with a high powered rifle. An air gun would be virtually impossible.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Muta

Shows how little I know about farming. Although, even with a high-powered pellet gun, that can kill / injure / scare away a coyote, can it not?

High powered pellet guns are regulated the same as firearms and Canada. Anything over 1,000ft/s requires a PAL and needs to be registered.

Shooting vermin with something intended to only scare it by injuring it is not very humane. If you miss and simply injure the animal, talking the time to reload a pellet gun and load the spring could allow the animal to get out of range. The point is to get rid of vermin, not be cruel and have them suffer.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Barnes

High powered pellet guns are regulated the same as firearms and Canada. Anything over 1,000ft/s requires a PAL and needs to be registered.

Shooting vermin with something intended to only scare it by injuring it is not very humane. If you miss and simply injure the animal, talking the time to reload a pellet gun and load the spring could allow the animal to get out of range. The point is to get rid of vermin, not be cruel and have them suffer.

But when a farmer comes to the point of breaking out the gun / pellet gun, I would believe he isn't thinking about the safety of the coyote; he's thinking about the safety of his crops / livestock. That's why he's holding the gun in the first place.

If the animal got out of range, is that not a good thing? You didn't kill it, it's not a threat any more, and animal services can then be called to take care of the problem, if need be?

I would think using a gun isn't very humane, either. Aren't there new technologies available to farmers that can address problems like these without resorting to killing things? I don't want to say that farmers should be able to have guns if the rest of society can't, since a double standard exists there. Criminals would then just move to the farms and acquire guns that way.

[Khel]

Originally Posted by Muta

Meh. Table has a point. What's the point in the average citizen having a handgun? Guns were designed for the purpose to inflict harm on another human being. Since their creation, they have become one of man's most lethally used weapons. Guns are important when they're on the side of law enforcement for obivous reasons, but that's it. Nobody else really has a good reason to need a gun.

The less guns in society, the better. Right now we have illegal guns and legal guns as commonplace in our society. If we can eliminate that just down to illegal guns, even better. I would bet that that the elimination of guns in general would have somewhat of an impact on the importing of illegal guns as well, since they then become more out in the open and riskier to import. The chances of gun crimes go down as a result.

Every step helps, even if they are little ones.

I would disagree, removing the guns from the law abiding citizens further empowers those that are using guns against the law, people who are increasingly more likely to use them. They know they don't have to fear recourse, as the guy on the other side doesn't have the means to defend himself, or if he does he's the one that's in trouble! It's a win win for the criminals. Here is an example from that reason articale:

"In 1999 Tony Martin, a 55-year-old Norfolk farmer living alone in a shabby farmhouse, awakened to the sound of breaking glass as two burglars, both with long criminal records, burst into his home. He had been robbed six times before, and his village, like 70 percent of rural English communities, had no police presence. He sneaked downstairs with a shotgun and shot at the intruders. Martin received life in prison for killing one burglar, 10 years for wounding the second, and a year for having an unregistered shotgun. The wounded burglar, having served 18 months of a three-year sentence, is now free and has been granted 5,000 of legal assistance to sue Martin."

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Muta

I would think using a gun isn't very humane, either. Aren't there new technologies available to farmers that can address problems like these without resorting to killing things? I don't want to say that farmers should be able to have guns if the rest of society can't, since a double standard exists there. Criminals would then just move to the farms and acquire guns that way.

If only we could make Claymore mines legal in Canada.

[Khel]

Originally Posted by Muta

But when a farmer comes to the point of breaking out the gun / pellet gun, I would believe he isn't thinking about the safety of the coyote; he's thinking about the safety of his crops / livestock. That's why he's holding the gun in the first place.

Coyotes don't have alot of natural predators. The balance of nature must be maintained!

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Muta

But when a farmer comes to the point of breaking out the gun / pellet gun, I would believe he isn't thinking about the safety of the coyote; he's thinking about the safety of his crops / livestock. That's why he's holding the gun in the first place.

If the animal got out of range, is that not a good thing? You didn't kill it, it's not a threat any more, and animal services can then be called to take care of the problem, if need be?

I would think using a gun isn't very humane, either. Aren't there new technologies available to farmers that can address problems like these without resorting to killing things? I don't want to say that farmers should be able to have guns if the rest of society can't, since a double standard exists there. Criminals would then just move to the farms and acquire guns that way.

The guns used by farmers are not the same as ones used in shootings at clubs. While it is true that there are plenty of unregistered rifles and shotguns out there on farms, it would be pretty obvious if someone tried to slip one of these into a club.

The process of getting acquiring and possessing legal handguns is pretty strict in Canada and storage rules are equally as strict. The guns involved in illegal activities for the most part come from the US illegally and many of them would not be legal in Canada anyway.

A broad ban on guns does nothing to stop the gun crimes being committed right now.

I used to sell guns at a local retailer and there was one case where a legally purchased firearm was involved in a homicide and the only way they were caught so easily is because of the firearm registry. The murder would have taken place and this person would have been caught whether or not this person had access to a gun.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Barnes

The guns used by farmers are not the same as ones used in shootings at clubs. While it is true that there are plenty of unregistered rifles and shotguns out there on farms, it would be pretty obvious if someone tried to slip one of these into a club.

The process of getting acquiring and possessing legal handguns is pretty strict in Canada and storage rules are equally as strict. The guns involved in illegal activities for the most part come from the US illegally and many of them would not be legal in Canada anyway.

A broad ban on guns does nothing to stop the gun crimes being committed right now.

Thank you, but I am well aware that firearms used in clubs are likely not the same types of firearms used on a farm. That's not what I was debating anyways.

It doesn't matter whether guns are illegal or not; guns are being used to commit crimes right now - just as you said. Hence, why we should get rid of the guns that we know we do have in our possession. It just reduces the overall number of firearms available to the public in general. The less guns, the better.

Originally Posted by Barnes

I used to sell guns at a local retailer and there was one case where a legally purchased firearm was involved in a homicide and the only way they were caught so easily is because of the firearm registry. The murder would have taken place and this person would have been caught whether or not this person had access to a gun.

So you're saying a legally purchased firearm was used in a murder? All the more reason to stop selling guns, then, and you just provided a great example. Simply make the firearm unavailable in the first place.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Muta

Okay, fine. Go back to a low-powered pellet gun. Shoot the coyote, scare him off. Problem solved.

A low power C02 cartridge pellet handgun can kill a human being just as well.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...016?hub=Canada

Originally Posted by Barnes

High powered pellet guns are regulated the same as firearms and Canada. Anything over 1,000ft/s requires a PAL and needs to be registered.

Shooting vermin with something intended to only scare it by injuring it is not very humane. If you miss and simply injure the animal, talking the time to reload a pellet gun and load the spring could allow the animal to get out of range. The point is to get rid of vermin, not be cruel and have them suffer.

I thought anything over 500 feet/second is classified as a firearm, not 1000.
There are many repeater and fully automatic pellet and bb guns also. It depends on your FPS and ammunition from metal pointed pellets, steel or copper ball bearings, plastic bbs, etc. A fully automatic airsoft assault rifle or even propane powered handgun could probably scare away a coyote more than a single shot pellet gun. I know I've had my skin broken by those at 600 feet.

[Mightyfire89]

Originally Posted by Barnes

High powered pellet guns are regulated the same as firearms and Canada. Anything over 1,000ft/s requires a PAL and needs to be registered.

Shooting vermin with something intended to only scare it by injuring it is not very humane. If you miss and simply injure the animal, talking the time to reload a pellet gun and load the spring could allow the animal to get out of range. The point is to get rid of vermin, not be cruel and have them suffer.

In the interest of people getting the correct information, I believe it's actually 500ft/s, but your points still stand.

Robbob made a key point in his post. Most guns used in crime are illegal to begin with, so outlawing handguns or guns in general would not be reasonable nor would it cut down on crimes involving guns. The criminals are still going to get their guns. I would guess at this exact moment, there is the equivalent of a semi trailer full of guns crossing the border destined for our Canadian streets. Lots of money in that sort of thing and with human nature being what it is, a change of laws isn't going to make an appreciable difference.

Just my opinion.

edit: I see Barnes pretty much already made this point.

[Khel]

Originally Posted by Muta

So you're saying a legally purchased firearm was used in a murder? All the more reason to stop selling guns, then, and you just provided a great example. Simply make the firearm unavailable in the first place.

And your saying that if the firearm wasn't available the murder wouldn't have taken place? The murderer wouldn't have used other alternatives, like a knife, brick, rope, car, hammer...

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Muta

But when a farmer comes to the point of breaking out the gun / pellet gun, I would believe he isn't thinking about the safety of the coyote; he's thinking about the safety of his crops / livestock. That's why he's holding the gun in the first place.

If the animal got out of range, is that not a good thing? You didn't kill it, it's not a threat any more, and animal services can then be called to take care of the problem, if need be?

I would think using a gun isn't very humane, either. Aren't there new technologies available to farmers that can address problems like these without resorting to killing things? I don't want to say that farmers should be able to have guns if the rest of society can't, since a double standard exists there. Criminals would then just move to the farms and acquire guns that way.

Muta, I would reccomend not posting about farm issues. Your post really shows your lack of knowledge in the area. Animal Control doesn't really exist outside of a city unless it is a bear or a couger or poaching related.

To address your point about other technologies farming is a low margin buisness and farmers use the lowest cost most effective means of pest control.

Your statement that Criminals would just move to the farms and aquire guns that way borders on the ubsurd. Granted there is some meth issues in rural areas it is not the same kind of issues seen in the city. It seems ubsurd that a criminal would move out to a farm to aquire or steel a gun when an easy to find illegal firearm exists in the city.

I do agree with a handgun ban and mandatory jail time without bail for posession of a handgun.

[Traditional_Ale]

Muta:

If you had to put your favorite horse down because say, riding it tripped up and broke its leg brutally, do you think an air-rifle would even come close?

EDIT: Sorry, didn't mean to pile on.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by GGG

Muta, I would reccomend not posting about farm issues. Your post really shows your lack of knowledge in the area. Animal Control doesn't really exist outside of a city unless it is a bear or a couger or poaching related.

Even for an injured animal? I'm sure there's someone you can call that can help an injured animal. While my knowledge of farms may be limited, the point still stands. No guns. Let's keep that on topic.

Originally Posted by GGG

To address your point about other technologies farming is a low margin buisness and farmers use the lowest cost most effective means of pest control.

I dunno, if you have money for a gun, you probably have money for a non-firearm method, too. Hell, even the mere presence of humans may be enough to scare off wildlife. But I digress.

Originally Posted by GGG

Your statement that Criminals would just move to the farms and aquire guns that way borders on the ubsurd. Granted there is some meth issues in rural areas it is not the same kind of issues seen in the city. It seems ubsurd that a criminal would move out to a farm to aquire or steel a gun when an easy to find illegal firearm exists in the city.

I don't think it's absurd at all. I think you think it's absurd because you've never heard of it before. If that is a way to acquire a gun, then it wouldn't stop somebody who would like to own a firearm. I think you're also mistaken about what a 'criminal' is; you don't have to be an urbanite or a gang member or a crack dealer to be a criminal. They come in many shapes and sizes, and there are lots probably you've come into contact with in your life that you'd never believe were involved in that lifestyle, but surprisingly are.

Originally Posted by GGG

I do agree with a handgun ban and mandatory jail time without bail for posession of a handgun.

Absolutely.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Muta:

If you had to put your favorite horse down because say, riding it tripped up and broke its leg brutally, do you think an air-rifle would even come close?

EDIT: Sorry, didn't mean to pile on.

Who cares? The least important point is the use of an air rifle. Fine, no rifles altogether, I agree - not even air rifles. Just do it some other humane way. There's nothing completely perfect about getting rid of guns altogether, and there are side effects such as situations like these. But you adapt and fine other ways, it's not impossible.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Khel

And your saying that if the firearm wasn't available the murder wouldn't have taken place? The murderer wouldn't have used other alternatives, like a knife, brick, rope, car, hammer...

Sorry, but my point still stands. You eliminate the source of the weapon, you eliminate the shooting. For all we know, that could have completely altered the course of the incident. If not, well, you've already eliminated a hugely lethal method of killing someone, which is more than worth the effort. Again, every little bit helps.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Matata

I agree, but let the farmers and hunters keep their rifles. Handguns and automatics have no place in the civilized world.

Speaking as someone who's a regular at the local firing range ... its a hobby. (I fire semi-autos handgun)

I really doubt guns can be entirely removed. Those who carry it around with some intention of using it will use it.

[Barnes]

My bad. It's 500 ft/s.

It's been awhile.

Getting rid of guns is about as likely as getting rid of drugs. We should be thankful that we live in a country where for the most part, we treat firearms with respect and have a realistic view of their uses and not view them as a means of prevention.

And trust me, the homicide would have taken place whether or not the person had access to firearms or not. Not exactly a criminal mastermind.

[BuzzardsWife]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

You should do what I do. Never read the local paper. Never listen to local radio. Never watch the local news. Unless something happens in your back yard you will never know whats going on and it will give the illusion that you are living in a nice safe city. Unless of course you live in a crime ridden area. For instance I was shocked to read a few weeks ago that a man was killed by a police taser here in Red Deer a few years ago. Had no idea.

the last shooting in our neighborhood was almost in our backyard..and the mask my daughter found was worn by the shooter as he escaped through her schoolyard at lunch break! yikes