40th Canadian Federal Election - Welcome to another Conservative Minority (whee!)

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by peter12

Personally, Manning is a very shy person and certainly early on in his political career, before he was even elected, I could see this having an impact on his public speaking. However, he is not a smarmy or dishonest person at all.

That might well be. But I think this was an early swing through Ontario, and he left a very poor impression on what his party was about. Evasive would probably be the best description of his talk. I wanted to know about this new party that was looking to make national waves. The campus was very curious. But most of the questions that were asked were brushed aside.

As the saying goes, you only get one chance to make a good first impression.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I'm still not sure what you mean by vagueness. The Red Book contained not just specifics about the Liberals' policies, but also how they intended to pay for them.

From the wikipedia (consider the source) link I posted:

Its tough to discuss an election that happened when I was 9, but from what I was told and read, the red book didn't adequately explain how they would do these things. This is something every opposition party attacked them on (much like the Green Shift today). What I do know for sure, is what was implented (and how) echosed the Reform policies of the day.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

The NDP really only appeals to a small group of personal interests, and their brash ideology tends to attract arts students and disenchanted youth. Which is why their sudden support jump is interesting. Its an interesting place for disenchanted voters to park their vote, that's for sure.

You consider 20% of Canadians a small group?

What provinces have you lived in? I've campaigned for the NDP in three provinces. The people I talk to at the door that are supportive are retirees, working families - both blue and white collar, soccer moms and hockey dads... when I'm at the volunteer center it isn't anarchists headquarters.

People are sick and tired of being told that there isn't enough money in Canada to improve health care, hearing the Conservatives AND Liberals pay lip service to the environment and do extremely little, and want someone to speak on our behalf in face of the gas gouging, cell phone price gouging, and bank gouging. And those people are not just "disenchanted youth". Perhaps your experience in Alberta is completely different than mine own, but I have to tell you, you have greatly mischaracterized the NDP supporters. There are far, far more of us walking among the populace than I presume you care to believe.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

You consider 20% of Canadians a small group?

What provinces have you lived in? I've campaigned for the NDP in three provinces. The people I talk to at the door that are supportive are retirees, working families - both blue and white collar, soccer moms and hockey dads... when I'm at the volunteer center it isn't anarchists headquarters.

People are sick and tired of being told that there isn't enough money in Canada to improve health care, hearing the Conservatives AND Liberals pay lip service to the environment and do extremely little, and want someone to speak on our behalf in face of the gas gouging, cell phone price gouging, and bank gouging. And those people are not just "disenchanted youth". Perhaps your experience in Alberta is completely different than mine own, but I have to tell you, you have greatly mischaracterized the NDP supporters. There are far, far more of us walking among the populace than I presume you care to believe.

No, 20% is not a small group... but typically the NDP poll in the average range of 10-15% nationally... which is not substantial nationally, as in, does not form governments.

-I think people are being horribly mislead if they think spending more on healthcare is going to do anything but increase tax burdens (Canada has the worst cost effectiveness out of every country in the Euro-Canada study as it is). They decry all private, for-profit clinics, yet Layton is arrogant and shameless enough to use the Shouldice clinic, which while insured provincially, is a *gasp* private clinic, despite claiming ignorance otherwise.

-I think they are mistaken in thinking the NDP's plan of "helping" the environment will do much more than increase unemployment, and scare business away, or kill them outright.

-They are in for a shock when their taxes shoot up and many of their jobs fly south or east away from hundreds and thousands of "retirees, working families - both blue and white collar, soccer moms and hockey dads."

-They are VERY mistaken if they think the government playing fast and loose with gas prices and cellphone costs will make their lives better. They already tried, the result was the NEP. Gas prices are more complicated than Layton makes it sound... our prices are 20-40% (depending on region) higher than in the US largely due to TAX. Then there's the issues of competition (there's little, just 3), transportation costs (Canada is more remote and less dense than the continential US), refining costs, and marketing costs. Gas stations themselves are NOT lucrative. But hey, Jack will force gas companies to sell at $1/L, rather than the market price... and then tack on a massive fuel surcharge. But what if Exxon doesn't want to sell their fuel for a loss, now that NAFTA is in place? Probably tear down NAFTA, which subject to belief, will decimate our already weakening commodity based economy.

-As for cellphones, there's a little more to this one... but why aren't we letting verizon, vodafone, etc. in to see if they can do better? Protectionism and Promotion of Home-Grown Oligarchs. Something the NDP is in favor of.

-Why attack the banks and damage the healthiest banking sector in the world in the face of global recession?? Really! Honestly, they do raise questions, but running in great guns will only destabilize our economy.

The NDP attract arts students, disenchanted youth and personal interest groups (unions, etc.) because they are usually the only people who either believe what the NDP is selling wholesale or rather have something to gain by their policies and don't care what will happen to everyone else.

Who said these disenchanted young people and arts students were anarchists anyway? Maybe these are intelligent people who like what the NDP stands for in theory, despite that theory being ineffective and illogical in practice. Its no secret that the NDP have the youngest candidates and supporters, its a widely known fact.

Look at the NDP provincially, even with federal assistance and transfers, they decimate economies. Ask BC, Ontario and Saskatchewan how good the NDP was for them.

You're right though... there are more than I want to believe. I don't like the Liberals, I really don't... but I can say this, save for one socialist outburst in the 80s and the Green Shift, they at least have sensible plans for running a country. I can't believe anyone would think the NDP's policies are remotely governable.

[MarchHare]

Ask BC, Ontario and Saskatchewan how good the NDP was for them.

I agree with most of your post, and I don't think a Layton-led NDP would be good for Canada nationally, but I have to correct this point:

The provincial NDP decimated the economies of BC and Ontario, true, but they've done (surprisingly!) well in Saskatchewan. You could argue that a more centrist or right-wing government could have done better, but Saskatchewan has gone from being a have not to a have province on the NDP's watch. Of course most of the credit goes to rising commodity prices and the province's wealth of natural resources (oil, uranium, potash), but one might have expected the NDP to tax the corporations harvesting those resources to death, driving them elsewhere. That obviously hasn't happened.

[Devils'Advocate]

Well, obviously I disagree with just about everything you have written. Obviously fearmongering from the other side of things.

- I've been supporting the NDP on and off since Broadbent (I have voted Green a number of times as well), so where Layton got his health care doesn't impact how I feel about the party and its platform as a whole. Also, Layton didn't know the clinic was for profit when he went there... the procedure went on OHIP.

- You claim the NDP's environmental policies will cause job losses and ruin the economy, but give no factual basis for this. Typical for fearmongering.

- The NDP do not advocate raising taxes on the middle class. It's right there in their platform. Insinuating that they would do so even though it is not in their platform - just typical fearmongering.

- The NDP do have "monitoring and regulating fuel prices at the pump" but suggesting that this is anything at all akin to the NEP is just fearmongering. His plan is even less stringent that what some provinces are already enacting (see http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local...n?hub=CP24Home )

- Our banks are strong because they are just rolling in profits. Profits gained by charging people absolutely outrageous ATM fees and monthly banking fees. If they were profitable and strong because of their smart banking, well, yeah, they deserve credit. Suggesting that attacking ATM fees is going to destabilize the economy is just fearmongering.

- The people that I talk to when I knock on doors are NOT people that "have something to gain from their policies"; most are people like me who want their taxes going to things they believe in like health care and education.

As for the NDP in Ontario, that was just horrible timing and Bob Rae couldn't please anyone. The Mulroney-John Crow recession was taking a huge bite out of the Canadian economy and Bob Rae tried to spend his way out of it. Stupid. Then towards the end of his term, he tried to make spending cuts and just took an axe to everything, pissing off the traditional supporters. It was certainly a mess, I will agree... but the Mulroney Conservatives and John Crow deserve a heap of the blame for that mess. As for BC and Saskatchewan, they both have had some very good NDP governments - and I would think even you would have to say that Roy Romanow proved that NDP governments can be fiscally responsible.

Personally, I can't believe there isn't more than 20% that support the NDP.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I agree with most of your post, and I don't think a Layton-led NDP would be good for Canada nationally, but I have to correct this point:

The provincial NDP decimated the economies of BC and Ontario, true, but they've done (surprisingly!) well in Saskatchewan. You could argue that a more centrist or right-wing government could have done better, but Saskatchewan has gone from being a have not to a have province on the NDP's watch. Of course most of the credit goes to rising commodity prices and the province's wealth of natural resources (oil, uranium, potash), but one might have expected the NDP to tax the corporations harvesting those resources to death, driving them elsewhere. That obviously hasn't happened.

You're right. Of course, the three factors that really got them going were Romanow being the most fiscally conservative NDP party leader ever, the rise and election of the Saskatchewan Party (specifically, the pressure the Sask Party put on the NDP to modeate, and when elected, the lowering of royalties), and the rise of the AB royalties making it more lucrative to use Alberta capital in SK.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Well, obviously I disagree with just about everything you have written. Obviously fearmongering from the other side of things.

- I've been supporting the NDP on and off since Broadbent (I have voted Green a number of times as well), so where Layton got his health care doesn't impact how I feel about the party and its platform as a whole. Also, Layton didn't know the clinic was for profit when he went there... the procedure went on OHIP. BS. If you're the leader of a national party, which Mr. Layton was in 2006... you tend to keep track of things. I could see if it was well before then... but that would still make him a hypocrite. He just wanted treatment for his family ASAP. I don't blame him for that. I do blame him for trying to prevent everyone else from that.

- You claim the NDP's environmental policies will cause job losses and ruin the economy, but give no factual basis for this. Typical for fearmongering. What you call fearmongering, I call likely end result based on economics and corporate behavior. What do companies do when costs escalate? Sacrifice profit? Not if they have a choice. They first cut costs. Most companies employ more people than they need. Doesn't help that Layton wants also to raise the federal corporate tax from 15% to 22.12% federally (straight from his platform).

- The NDP do not advocate raising taxes on the middle class. It's right there in their platform. Insinuating that they would do so even though it is not in their platform - just typical fearmongering. I don't see anything about raising taxes, or lowering them. He does say he wants to cut loopholes though. Even so, its all about definitions. In Canada today, someone making $75,769/yr. before tax is in the second highest income bracket. The highest income bracket is $123,184. This has not been the case traditionally. Up until 2001, the highest tax bracket was $60,009. Point is, the NDP could claim they are raising taxes on "the wealthy", but they could always change what "wealthy" means, and what "working class" means, depending on how much money they need. Don't say that's fearmongering, because Layton has said he wants to undo a lot of what Martin and Harper did to the tax system. They definitely did that.

- The NDP do have "monitoring and regulating fuel prices at the pump" but suggesting that this is anything at all akin to the NEP is just fearmongering. His plan is even less stringent that what some provinces are already enacting (see http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local...n?hub=CP24Home )
Regulating prices is exactly what the NEP officially tried to do though. They established a "Canadian Price" and set it well below the "Market Price." Monitoring? fine, as long as its fair and balanced, and lacking an agenda. I don't think widespread regulation would even be possible under NAFTA anymore. As for those provinces, fill your boots... I'm sure they'll love shortages when the big 3 choose not to service them as much.

- Our banks are strong because they are just rolling in profits. Profits gained by charging people absolutely outrageous ATM fees and monthly banking fees. If they were profitable and strong because of their smart banking, well, yeah, they deserve credit. Suggesting that attacking ATM fees is going to destabilize the economy is just fearmongering.
ATM and banking fees are one thing. They're attacking interest rates, loan rates, etc. Essentially, the NDP want the banks to do exactly what got the US in so much trouble. Essentially, force rates low and requirements to a point where people frivolously take on debt and default. I don't need to fearmonger... want proof that's a bad idea, look to Europe and the US.

- The people that I talk to when I knock on doors are NOT people that "have something to gain from their policies"; most are people like me who want their taxes going to things they believe in like health care and education.
Because people are frustrated... and they have every right to be. Canada has a pretty piss-poor cost effectiveness in both healthcare and education. We are not replacing professionals and skilled tradesmen(and women). However, throwing money at the problem is not the solution. However, spending money sounds good... until one gets the bill.

As for the NDP in Ontario, that was just horrible timing and Bob Rae couldn't please anyone. The Mulroney-John Crow recession was taking a huge bite out of the Canadian economy and Bob Rae tried to spend his way out of it. Stupid. Then towards the end of his term, he tried to make spending cuts and just took an axe to everything, pissing off the traditional supporters. It was certainly a mess, I will agree... but the Mulroney Conservatives and John Crow deserve a heap of the blame for that mess. As for BC and Saskatchewan, they both have had some very good NDP governments - and I would think even you would have to say that Roy Romanow proved that NDP governments can be fiscally responsible.

Of course, Mulroney inherited record debt and spending from Trudeau. It doesn't help the balancebooks when he sent the West into a real recession. Bob Rae still proved the point. Dippers want to spend their way out of crisis, by taking money out of the economy. That is historically diasaterous. Saskatchewan is a funny case. Romanow isn't a typical NDPer, but I'd hardly consider the first chunk of his term to be outstanding.

Personally, I can't believe there isn't more than 20% that support the NDP.

Well, that is a value statement, and we're both free to those.

[Caged Great]

did you see that BS on CTV

They were interviewing Dion in Halifax I think and they asked him a question about what would he do if he was prime minister. However, they did not give him a clear concise time for which he would have started. They said separately from when Harper was first elected, from today and from a week from now. Dion asked for restarts because they were changing the question every time he was trying to give an answer.

Now they are saying that he can't comprehend English. I only speak English fluently (Well, most of the time) and I had a hard time understanding what they were specifically asking.

Additionally, they agreed with the Liberals to not show it , but it's on Mike Duffy live now. Fataing BS. I don't particularly like Dion despite me being a Liberal supporter. I would be just as angry if Harper, or Layton, or Duceppe, or May would've been attacked like this.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

did you see that BS on CTV

They were interviewing Dion in Halifax I think and they asked him a question about what would he do if he was prime minister. However, they did not give him a clear concise time for which he would have started. They said separately from when Harper was first elected, from today and from a week from now. Dion asked for restarts because they were changing the question every time he was trying to give an answer.

Now they are saying that he can't comprehend English. I only speak English fluently (Well, most of the time) and I had a hard time understanding what they were specifically asking.

Additionally, they agreed with the Liberals to not show it , but it's on Mike Duffy live now. Fataing BS. I don't particularly like Dion despite me being a Liberal supporter. I would be just as angry if Layton or Duceppe or May would've been attacked like this. (I would be angry if it was a conservative as well, but in this case I cannot be impartial because I really have a strong hatred of Harper. I wouldn't mind if the conservatives won another minority but got rid of him)

While a Prime Minister should have a strong grasp of both languages and especially english, I agree with you, that kind of media is unethical. However, one should rarely expect the media to perform at a high level of morality... for any party.

[CaptainCrunch]

Looks like the Greens are starting to endorse the Liberals in Montreal. If this is something thats coming from the top of the Green party, then the Green's have just lost all credibility as a credible vote.

[mrdeeds]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Looks like the Greens are starting to endorse the Liberals in Montreal. If this is something thats coming from the top of the Green party, then the Green's have just lost all credibility as a credible vote.

Why? The Liberals are onside with much of the Green Platform. This is simply strategic voting along the lines of the ABC campaign.

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

did you see that BS on CTV

They were interviewing Dion in Halifax I think and they asked him a question about what would he do if he was prime minister. However, they did not give him a clear concise time for which he would have started. They said separately from when Harper was first elected, from today and from a week from now. Dion asked for restarts because they were changing the question every time he was trying to give an answer.

Now they are saying that he can't comprehend English. I only speak English fluently (Well, most of the time) and I had a hard time understanding what they were specifically asking.

Additionally, they agreed with the Liberals to not show it , but it's on Mike Duffy live now. Fataing BS. I don't particularly like Dion despite me being a Liberal supporter. I would be just as angry if Harper, or Layton, or Duceppe, or May would've been attacked like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv-5biChVrA

[FlamesAddiction]

I don't see what was so bad about that either way. I don't think the interviewer was being nasty or anything... I do wonder why they would choose to show the outtakes on the news though.... do they do that for everyone, or just for Dion?

(... and don't tell me that other politicians don't do the same thing... i don't buy that for a second.)

[Caged Great]

Just Dion. That's why I'm angry. They are making it out like he's incompetent.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mrdeeds

Why? The Liberals are onside with much of the Green Platform. This is simply strategic voting along the lines of the ABC campaign.

I call Bull on that, your either a party that wants to run in an election, set and fight based on your own platform and policy, or your a provisional arm of another party.

I think if the Green's start endorsing Liberal votes and they start throwing their chance at winning seats and actually establishing themselves as a political party then they don't deserve a seat at any debate, and they are a a sellout party.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Looks like the Greens are starting to endorse the Liberals in Montreal. If this is something thats coming from the top of the Green party, then the Green's have just lost all credibility as a credible vote.

It's funny you know. When Joe Clark was leader of the Progressive Conservatives, Harper & the Alliance was telling Joe that he had to stop running people in western ridings. Now Harper is saying that two parties working together to help each other is just plain wrong.

[CaptainCrunch]

I don't think that the restart thing will have a great deal of legs, to me while it makes Dion look like a bit of a bumbler, it also gives him a human quality.

However I don't think any political party should have the right to ask or demand that something like this not be shown, the press doesn't work for the Liberals or the Conservatives or anyone, and their first responsibility is to report the news, and since Dion is running for the position of Prime Minister, we have a right to see this, and the press has a right to report it.

You can be sure that the Liberals would be screaming bloody murder if the Conservatives had made a request to the press not to show Harper bumbling like that.

But to me its not a big deal.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

It's funny you know. When Joe Clark was leader of the Progressive Conservatives, Harper & the Alliance was telling Joe that he had to stop running people in western ridings. Now Harper is saying that two parties working together to help each other is just plain wrong.

And I wasn't happy about that back then either. I think if I was a green supporter that this would probably drive me away from using them as a protest vote.

Pretty sure that a smart NDP candidate in those ridings should be able to take advantage of that.

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

You can be sure that the Liberals would be screaming bloody murder if the Conservatives had made a request to the press not to show Harper bumbling like that.

Of course they would; however getting footage of Harper bumbling is very difficult.

I don't agree with him or the CPC party on everything; but he certainly is better qualified to be PM.