40th Canadian Federal Election - Welcome to another Conservative Minority (whee!)

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Slava

Which MP was charged?

I don't think that the years of fiscal responsibility are erased because someone else acted unethically.

That's what I was getting at with my "not seeing the forest for the trees" comment.

The Sponsorship Scandal wrongfully cost the Canadian taxpayers about $100 million spread over the better part of a decade. During those same years, the Liberal budgets resulted in multi-billion dollar supluses. Does that excuse the scandal? Absolutely it does not, but a little perspective is needed. History will judge the Chretien/Martin Liberals as having done well, on the whole, when it comes to fiscal responsability and managing the budget and economy.

[transplant99]

History will judge the Chretien/Martin Liberals as having done well, on the whole, when it comes to fiscal responsability and managing the budget and economy.

Maybe, maybe not.

I still think their entire "balancing" act was no more than cutting transfer payments and then proclaiming victory in a balanced budget. Its not a bad thing mind you, as it is a fiscally responsible thing to do as the Gov't of Canada. It hurt provinces of course, but really they are not a federal bodies first priority.

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by Slava

Which MP was charged?

I never said MP or convicted. I said members and charged.

If you don't think the Liberal party was knee deep in the Adscam dung, you are kidding yourself.

I don't think that the years of fiscal responsibility are erased because someone else acted unethically.

Well this is where we truly differ. I have huge issues with individuals acting unethically. When it comes to our money; there should be checks and balances to insure that this type of thing cannot happen.

So yes, Chretien and Martin let us down miserably in that area.

What you are saying amounts to; "They delivered so well, who cares if they filtered a little off for themselves."

[Slava]

Originally Posted by First Lady

I never said MP or convicted. I said members and charged.

If you don't think the Liberal party was knee deep in the Adscam dung, you are kidding yourself.



Well this is where we truly differ. I have huge issues with individuals acting unethically. When it comes to our money; there should be checks and balances to insure that this type of thing cannot happen.

So yes, Chretien and Martin let us down miserably in that area.

What you are saying amounts to; "They delivered so well, who cares if they filtered a little off for themselves."

No, this is where you're twisting my words. I never said everything was fine if they "filtered a little off for themselves." I just think that it is foolish to paint the entire Liberal membership with the same brush because of the actions of a few.

I also think that the record of Chretien and Martin fiscally and the Adscam issue are totally separate. I have enormous issues with people acting unethically, and there ought to be checks and balances when dealing with money...we actually agree on more than where we disagree.

I have a hard time saying that the Liberals are any more unethical than the Conservatives though, given the electoral financing scandal that they were involved in. I know that we are not talking about the same amount of money, but ethics are ethics in either case.

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by Slava

No, this is where you're twisting my words. I never said everything was fine if they "filtered a little off for themselves." I just think that it is foolish to paint the entire Liberal membership with the same brush because of the actions of a few.

... and you had twisted mine.

I also think that the record of Chretien and Martin fiscally and the Adscam issue are totally separate. I have enormous issues with people acting unethically, and there ought to be checks and balances when dealing with money...we actually agree on more than where we disagree.

I understand you also handle other people's money; not in the same way I do, but I can see we would agree on the ethics issue.

I see Chretien and Martin as the coaches of team that preformed miserably. They need to held accountalbe (and have been: see last election results.)

I have a hard time saying that the Liberals are any more unethical than the Conservatives though, given the electoral financing scandal that they were involved in. I know that we are not talking about the same amount of money, but ethics are ethics in either case.

Again we agree. Though the conservatives did it with their own party money; not taxpayers money.

I don't recall seeing the outcome of that one... will have to look it up sometime.

[Slava]

^ FL, my point here is pretty simple. I think that Chretien and Martin should be held accountable if they did anything wrong. In my profession ethics and integrity are all you have and that should be the same standard in politics.

That being said I don't think that someone elses actions, where no proveable link has been found, should tarnish the years of surpluses and fiscally responsible government. They took the political hit for the whole Adscam issue, and rightly so. But you can't simply say that everything they did is bad just because of one event.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Slava

given the electoral financing scandal that they were involved in.

You mean the In-And-Out scheme that every party was doing but the Conservatives did more of?

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by calculoso

You mean the In-And-Out scheme that every party was doing but the Conservatives did more of?

Or what about all the Liberal leadership race debt that candidates accumulated and did not pay back on time? Fact is roasting the conservatives for the in and out scheme reeks of throwing stones in glass houses. As for adscam, I consider it so bad that I think it's unethical to vote for the Liberals while they have a cabinet minister from that era running as their leader. It shows to me that the party does not take accountability of taxpayers money seriously.

[Thunderball]

One thing is for certain... the Liberals, and especially the Conservatives simply must start attacking the NDP. Wacky Jack has been treated pretty nicely because typically the NDP are an eccentric, hard left fringe party whose 10-20 seats are largely inconsequential.

Right now this is not the case. They are actually a factor for reasons which boggle the mind, and have to be addressed. Layton's bogus claims and largely baseless ads have to be countered by something that reminds people that a vote for the NDP is a vote for a depression, not a recession, because the NDP anti-business, socialist, tax and spend happy mentality will kill any investor confidence the conservative (and yes, even the Fiberals) have created in Canada.

Harper and Dion are too busy attacking each other, they are missing the lunatic coming through the middle. The same mis-step that resulted in Stelmach in Alberta, and Dion in the Liberal leadership.

[MarchHare]

They are actually a factor for reasons which boggle the mind

They're a factor because many Canadians who normally would support the Liberals either don't like Dion or aren't comfortable voting for them again so soon after the Chretien-era scandals.

This should have meant an EASY majority for the Conservatives in both this election and the last one, but there's many voters in Ontario, Quebec, and Atlantic Canada who won't vote for a re-branded Reform Party. Swing votes that would have gone to the former Progressive Conservative Party are now going to the NDP or the Greens instead of the CPC.

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Harper and Dion are too busy attacking each other, they are missing the lunatic coming through the middle. The same mis-step that resulted in Stelmach in Alberta, and Dion in the Liberal leadership.

I don't Jacki will quite pull off a Stelmach; but he does stand a good chance at holding the balance in another minority outcome.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

They're a factor because many Canadians who normally would support the Liberals either don't like Dion or aren't comfortable voting for them again so soon after the Chretien-era scandals.

This should have meant an EASY majority for the Conservatives in both this election and the last one, but there's many voters in Ontario, Quebec, and Atlantic Canada who won't vote for a re-branded Reform Party. Swing votes that would have gone to the former Progressive Conservative Party are now going to the NDP or the Greens instead of the CPC.

I understand this, but to me it doesn't make sense. You'd think the Liberals that dislike Dion would be the more right leaning ones, since Dion tends to be pretty left as far as Liberals go. As far as punishing the Liberals, why vote for the party that is most likely to get (back) into bed with them and prop up a Liberal minority government.

Frankly, I think it speaks poorly about the people of Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes if they would rather vote for extreme fringe parties than for a party that reflects their views because the leader is Albertan and they merged with the Reform party. Its pretty petty and ignorant, it smacks of the same kind of deplorable POV that Chretien shouldn't have been elected because he looks funny due to a stroke.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by First Lady

I don't Jacki will quite pull off a Stelmach; but he does stand a good chance at holding the balance in another minority outcome.

I don't think he will either, but his popularity is getting way too high.

As long as the Bloc also hold a balance, its not as bad... but if NDP + Liberal > CPC + Bloc, we're all in big trouble. You do not want a weak leader like Dion with Layton pulling his strings.

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

I don't think he will either, but his popularity is getting way too high.

As long as the Bloc also hold a balance, its not as bad... but if NDP + Liberal > CPC + Bloc, we're all in big trouble. You do not want a weak leader like Dion with Layton pulling his strings.

You have no idea if Dion is a weak leader or not.

Jeez I must come across as a huge Liberal supporter. I've never voted Liberal in my life.

Dion took on the Quebec elite with the Clarity Act which was no small task. Lead the environment file when it was time to ratify and proposed one of the most radical campaign platforms in Canadian political history.

That hardly indicates he would be a weak leader.

[MarchHare]

Frankly, I think it speaks poorly about the people of Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes if they would rather vote for extreme fringe parties than for a party that reflects their views because the leader is Albertan and they merged with the Reform party.

I guess it all depends on your POV. East of Manitoba, the Reform Party was seen as an "extreme fringe party", and the current CPC is largely regarded as a continuation of that party with much of the same leadership but a new name. Harper isn't even from Alberta originally, and his province of residence has absolutely nothing to do with his lack of appeal to Ontario, Quebec, and Atlantic voters. When Joe Clark led the PC Party (and represented the Alberta riding of Calgary Centre), he had no problems winning votes in Eastern and Central Canada.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

You have no idea if Dion is a weak leader or not.

Jeez I must come across as a huge Liberal supporter. I've never voted Liberal in my life.

Dion took on the Quebec elite with the Clarity Act which was no small task. Lead the environment file when it was time to ratify and proposed one of the most radical campaign platforms in Canadian political history.

That hardly indicates he would be a weak leader.

Dion is an academic... he's not a stupid man, though I've never said that, I should make that clear. Sometimes this is an issue. He thinks like an academic and gets caught in his own details, rather than keeping things simple and snappy. That is one of the things that is getting him in trouble right now.

However, both in the election and as leader of the opposition in parliament (yes, I occasionally indulge in a little CPAC), he has not demonstrated the traits needed to be a strong minority leader. I think Layton could bully him to keep the balance of power and away from the polls.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

Jeez I must come across as a huge Liberal supporter. I've never voted Liberal in my life.

You sure fooled me!

I tend to agree about Dion though. He's not the "soft leader" the media tends to portray him as. In my opinion his English is a little weak to be the leader of a predominantly English speaking country but that aside it's his platform that is preventing me form getting behind him, not his personality traits.

edit: I should also add that Harper's no boogeyman either. I really thought we, as Canadians, were better than personal attack ads. I wish there would be more talk about the platforms and not focusing on personality traits like the way someone dresses! All parties are equally guilty of this...

[driveway]

Originally Posted by First Lady

What you are saying amounts to; "They delivered so well, who cares if they filtered a little off for themselves."

I actually am fine with that. If a government is balancing the budget, keeping us out of unnessescary wars, and slowly-but-surely dealing with environmental issues - I have no problems with them skimming a little.

No harm, no foul.

[kevman]

oops

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by driveway

I actually am fine with that. If a government is balancing the budget, keeping us out of unnessescary wars, and slowly-but-surely dealing with environmental issues - I have no problems with them skimming a little.

No harm, no foul.

Really? Doesn't that just encourage corruption then? I'm not naive enough to believe it doesn't exist, as IMO, there's no such thing as an honest politician. But at least do a better job of hiding it rather than make us Canadians look stupid.