City Ok's Crowchild Expansion

[ah123]

Originally posted by Mr. Ski@Apr 26 2005, 12:57 PM
Interesting note: We live pretty far north and were out for a drive the other day and noticed that there's a large sign along the west side Harvest Hills Blvd saying, "Home of Future LRT Station, etc, etc." This is directly north/west of the bus trap off Beddington Blvd; adjacent to the driving range.

Here's a map and satellite image. The sign was roughly in the center of the picture on the green space.

Wonder how many year's before that leg of the train gets built, and where else it will go? Anyone know?

My parents just moved into that area and their realtor was saying that the NE leg of the LRT will eventually be extended to go until Silver City... One of the stops will be at or near the airport...

[V]

I know that they are planning to run the LRT all the way up 36 St. in the NE. That's why they've left the ginormous median between each direction of traffic.

I think calling Huntington Hills a future LRT site is about as long-term looking as you can get. It'll be a while before the LRT makes it to the airport, let alone the Country Hills area.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally posted by JohnnyO@Apr 26 2005, 11:34 AM
The only problem I have with the Bresbois/Crow Interchange is that you cant go from Brentwood mall or the University to Northland without using Northmount or going around from Shaganappi.

Well you technically can, it's just whether the extra block at 80km/h is really that much of a bother. Given the old snafu that used to be there, I'll take that minor detour anyday. Demolishing that Bible college wasn't an option.

Going to the University is no prob, take the road in front of the Pizza hut over to Charleswood and you're there.

As for going to Northland, I just take the Shag exit, dumps me a block west of Northland Dr.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally posted by Reaper@Apr 26 2005, 12:09 PM
There was a failed project where the C Train was to run underground along Bow Trail but there were too many flooding concerns due to our crazy weather. You can see where the inlet to the Bow Trail tunnel from inside the Dalhousie/Somerset tunnel immediately south of the downtown core on the west side of said tunnel.

Where is this tunnel exactly? They can build a tunnel under the English Channel, but get defeated by a Chinook or two? Cost of going underground would be huge I'm sure.

[Hakan]

Originally posted by fotze+Apr 26 2005, 07:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fotze @ Apr 26 2005, 07:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-I-Hate-Hulse@Apr 26 2005, 08:28 AM
Having previously lived in that area for 20 years, it's a desperately needed change.

Still it's a joke, because all that free flowing traffic across 6 lanes is suddenly bottlenecked at McMahon to Kensington. Both lights and 4 lanes are the culprit here. WHen they shut that bridge just after 16th they really should have made it 6 lanes. Yet another shining example of City planning.

They just need to eliminate all the inner city neighborhoods and make them into 10 lane arteries into the core along with massive parking lots. [/b][/quote]
Quoted for emphasis.

[Reaper]

Originally posted by I-Hate-Hulse+Apr 26 2005, 12:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (I-Hate-Hulse @ Apr 26 2005, 12:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Reaper@Apr 26 2005, 12:09 PM
There was a failed project where the C Train was to run underground along Bow Trail but there were too many flooding concerns due to our crazy weather. You can see where the inlet to the Bow Trail tunnel from inside the Dalhousie/Somerset tunnel immediately south of the downtown core on the west side of said tunnel.

Where is this tunnel exactly? They can build a tunnel under the English Channel, but get defeated by a Chinook or two? Cost of going underground would be huge I'm sure. [/b][/quote]
The tunnel branches off the main line behind city hall and I believe it ran underground along 9th avenue when they had aspirations of running it further west than the line on 7th does now.

The problem with the tunnel, by my understanding was that in order to have all the stations underground along the line that with the chinooks and the snowfall there were problems with flooding due to the fact that they couldn't seal up the tube from end to end.

Well, they could have sealed it up but the cost would have been enourmous with air locks to get down to the station, problems with the train being below the sewer lines, etc.

And you can bet that there would not have been any "free fare zone" like there is now. Transit fares would also probably be in the $5 range by now because of all the freeze/thaw cycles wreaking havoc on surface concrete and the constant service required to prevent flooding.

Water and open electrical lines a la the C Train ten not to cooperate when said electrical lines get submerged in said water.

[Eagle Eye]

This website has a lot of information about the current C-Train and any routes in the future (including the airport, west, SE, and North lines).

http://members.shaw.ca/LRTinCalgary/Index.html

[Reaper]

Well, apparently I'm a dirty, rotten liar.

The underground proposal for the Calgary LRT was canned due to budgetary constraints.

Originally, Calgary Transit had planned on building the C-Train system in a subway format where the trains would run underground underneath 8th Avenue SW/SE instead of above ground on 7th Avenue. In 1980, the new City Hall municipal building was voted by Calgarians to be built on already existing government owned land instead of leasing office space from private businesses. Design of the new 14-storey municipal building included a parkade to be built underground, including at the time, a subway for the LRT system to be constructed. Unfortunately because the LRT system was already $23.3-million over budget, underground LRT in Calgary was put to a halt and all that was ever built was the shell of the tunnel.

A link:

http://www.barp.ca/bus/lrt/calgary/anderson.htmlhttp://www.barp.ca/bus/lrt/calgary/anderson.html

[Eagle Eye]

Originally posted by Reaper@Apr 26 2005, 01:33 PM
Well, apparently I'm a dirty, rotten liar.

The underground proposal for the Calgary LRT was canned due to budgetary constraints.

Originally, Calgary Transit had planned on building the C-Train system in a subway format where the trains would run underground underneath 8th Avenue SW/SE instead of above ground on 7th Avenue. In 1980, the new City Hall municipal building was voted by Calgarians to be built on already existing government owned land instead of leasing office space from private businesses. Design of the new 14-storey municipal building included a parkade to be built underground, including at the time, a subway for the LRT system to be constructed. Unfortunately because the LRT system was already $23.3-million over budget, underground LRT in Calgary was put to a halt and all that was ever built was the shell of the tunnel.

A link:

http://www.barp.ca/bus/lrt/calgary/anderson.htmlhttp://www.barp.ca/bus/lrt/calgary/anderson.html

I have heard that the underground LRT is still an option in the future as there would be too many trains coming downtown when the complete system is up and running in the next 30 years. I have heard a rumour that there is a shell of a station built under Bankers Hall, and that the new building where Cowboys is currently will have the same thing (maybe they are making the private sector pay for most of the upgrades as newer buildings are built). I can't remember where I heard this rumour, but I am sure that someone will straighten me out.

[Mr. Ski]

Originally posted by 'Eagle Eye'+Apr 26 2005, 08:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ('Eagle Eye' @ Apr 26 2005, 08:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Reaper@Apr 26 2005, 01:33 PM
Well, apparently I'm a dirty, rotten liar.

The underground proposal for the Calgary LRT was canned due to budgetary constraints.

Originally, Calgary Transit had planned on building the C-Train system in a subway format where the trains would run underground underneath 8th Avenue SW/SE instead of above ground on 7th Avenue. In 1980, the new City Hall municipal building was voted by Calgarians to be built on already existing government owned land instead of leasing office space from private businesses. Design of the new 14-storey municipal building included a parkade to be built underground, including at the time, a subway for the LRT system to be constructed. Unfortunately because the LRT system was already $23.3-million over budget, underground LRT in Calgary was put to a halt and all that was ever built was the shell of the tunnel.

A link:

http://www.barp.ca/bus/lrt/calgary/anderson.htmlhttp://www.barp.ca/bus/lrt/calgary/anderson.html

I have heard that the underground LRT is still an option in the future as there would be too many trains coming downtown when the complete system is up and running in the next 30 years. I have heard a rumour that there is a shell of a station built under Bankers Hall, and that the new building where Cowboys is currently will have the same thing (maybe they are making the private sector pay for most of the upgrades as newer buildings are built). I can't remember where I heard this rumour, but I am sure that someone will straighten me out. [/b][/quote]
That I can confirm... Penny Lane Towers (going eventually where Cowboys is currently) is indeed required to have planned access to a below ground LRT station along 8th street.

Long story, but after playing around on the "Towers of the World" site linked here last week I did a search on "Penny Lane Tower" and found their development permit application to city hall. Info on the LRT was contained within.

[Claeren]

In regards to the tunnel. The idea now is that each building that is built along that line (8th ave) has considerations at the underground level for future LRT. So when enough new buildings have been built it is only a matter of connecting the sections/stations of the new buildings. That is why that Penny Lane high rise proposal was so significant, it would be the furthest west section in the future LRT line, or in other words it would eventually be the hub for the future 'Penny Lane' station. As far as i know City Hall, the Convention Centre, Bankers Hall, and Penny Lane would all be ready to go, we just need 2-3 more stops west of that and then connections and track and stations and access and so on and you are ready to go!

On a side note about flooding, that is the explination as to why we don't have a tunnel versus Edmonton. They did it because they had stable soil and no water table to deal with. We have both problems, which we can overcome but for even more money then Edmonton spent, a VERY signifacant amount. Calgary went from DT to University for the same price as one block of underground cost in Edmonton.


LRT out to Crowfoot is dumb IMHO. It is a GREAT idea in the broad sense but by favouring that over extensions like the DT to the west westbrook extension or the new DT to SE line through Inglewood, or a new DT to NE'ish extension to the deerfoot and eventually coventry hills is misguided. The greatest value in a commuter city like Calgary for LRT is to get the most people into the core as possible. People are already willing to drive to Brentwood/Dalhousie/Stadium to fill up the parking and to fill the trains. The ONLY thing a multimillion dollar station at crowfoot does is lessen their drive 5-8km's, but still fills the trains with the same amount of people. That means that amount of pressure on the actual DT core entrance points is the exact same.

By comparison, any of the other 3 extensions i mentioned would allow for an entirely new set of drivers to drive half way to work and then take the train the rest of the way in. For example, an extension to the old Westbrook site would allow empty NE trains to take another 50,000(?) passengers a day off the last leg (the worst leg) of the downtown commute.

After understanding that rush hour is a reality in ANY city, and should be, the problems are not on the edges of the city but rather on that last leg into the core. A car taken off of the Bowtrail/9th ave stretch of the commute is a LOT more valuable then a car taken off of the Stoney Trail to Dalhousie stretch.

It is a silly but signifcant point that cities have cores in the middle of a circlular shaped city for a reason, and that the very thing that makes a core valuable is the very reason traveling through that last leg efficiently is so important.

Lastly, stations out as far as crowfoot encourage even more sprawl, more traffic, poorer transportation decisions, etc. People are even more enable to live further from the core and even better, more of them are not even tax paying citizens! So essentially, we are not building stations on our edges for Calgarians (who can drive or bus easily the first few km's to the current stations) but for the 'non-property tax'/'only occasionally gas tax' paying citizens of Cochrane, Airdrie, and Okatoks, along with all those other people outside city limits.

Just seems silly.... although admitedly winning more votes from the easy to please suburban voters...


The new North/NE line up to the area above Nosehill park is a LONG way off, probably the 6th line of the LRT. It will likely run out to the Zoo, then north along the Deerfoot, then branch out to the west and up Beddington Tr or along Country Hills and so on from there.

In regards to the above, it will also likely be most of the route for the airport extension, which is a LOT further off then most may realize. There are ZERO plans for an airport connection to the current NE route, as it will now curve east not west, and instead the airport route will follow the deerfoot south to the zoo and then into the city, making it the 6.5 route.


Cheers,
Claeren.

[Claeren]

Sorry to repeat some stuff guys, you posted while i was typing....

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

I disagree with you Clareen. Brentwood and Dalhousie fill up every day. The reason a lot of people don't take the train isn't because of the driving aspect, it is the lack of parking, or the fact that if you are comming form cochrane or west of Dalhousie, you have to go through a very large portion of hte gridlock to get to Brentwood (as parking at dalhousie is not an option for those of us who don't want to catch the train at 6:30). I think a lot of people don't see the point of taking the train when they've already been through half of the congestion on the way to downtown (nosehill, sarcee etc are very bad spots for commuting from the NW). A station at Crowfoot means that you don't have to drive through any congestion to catch the train, as opposed to now, where by the time you get to the train station, it isn't that much more of a big deal to coninue on to the core.

EDIT: Though I also agree that extending the train to otherwise C-train less sections of the city would probalby be more beneficial.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken@Apr 26 2005, 10:29 AM
I'm not sure what the interchange at Glenmore/5 St is going to look like, but if you want to talk about frustrating traffic, just imagine trying to drive through there in rush hour while construction is going on. That's going to be an absolute nightmare.

http://www.calgarytpo.com/media/pdf_files/...change-plan.pdf

Yes, it will be a nightmare, and I live right on the intersection of Glenmore and Elbow.

The detour road on this project will take six months to build alone, and should be done by the end of the fall. Glenmore will be down to two lanes each way from MacLeod to Elbow, 5th street will be closed, and the traffic lights on Glenmore removed early next month.

What a fun time to drive in Calgary. :unsure:

[Bean]

Originally posted by Mr. Ski@Apr 26 2005, 06:57 PM
Interesting note: We live pretty far north and were out for a drive the other day and noticed that there's a large sign along the west side Harvest Hills Blvd saying, "Home of Future LRT Station, etc, etc." This is directly north/west of the bus trap off Beddington Blvd; adjacent to the driving range.

Here's a map and satellite image. The sign was roughly in the center of the picture on the green space.

Wonder how many year's before that leg of the train gets built, and where else it will go? Anyone know?

Out of curiousity, what would this do for the property values for the houses in the surrounding areas?

[Claeren]

Originally posted by Bring_Back_Shantz@Apr 26 2005, 02:13 PM
I disagree with you Clareen. Brentwood and Dalhousie fill up every day. The reason a lot of people don't take the train isn't because of the driving aspect, it is the lack of parking, or the fact that if you are comming form cochrane or west of Dalhousie, you have to go through a very large portion of hte gridlock to get to Brentwood (as parking at dalhousie is not an option for those of us who don't want to catch the train at 6:30). I think a lot of people don't see the point of taking the train when they've already been through half of the congestion on the way to downtown (nosehill, sarcee etc are very bad spots for commuting from the NW). A station at Crowfoot means that you don't have to drive through any congestion to catch the train, as opposed to now, where by the time you get to the train station, it isn't that much more of a big deal to coninue on to the core.

EDIT: Though I also agree that extending the train to otherwise C-train less sections of the city would probalby be more beneficial.

That is not disagreeing with me, i just didn't address it.

Essentially what i was saying is that capacity into the core is a bigger problem then the reach of the system.

More trains and more parking at existing stations would do more to improve the daily commute for all of us then spending money on a station to crowfoot. An extra 10,000 parking spots at Dalhousie and Brentwood along with trains to carry those people would have a much bigger effect then a new station at Crowfoot with 500 parking spots and although 10,000 is a huge number incrediably it would cost less to do that then the crowfoot run.


Also, you are contradicting yourself (and proving my point about sprawl and pleasing suburbanites on the fringe and from out of town), the road changes on Crowchild by your logic will make a station at Rocky Ridge necessary and make the one at Crowfoot obsolete before it is built. You are now going to sit in traffic up to and including the lights at Stoney Trail but after that it is easy driving all the way to Stadium, so why stop and catch the train?

My guess is the same people using Dalhousie now will fill up Crowfoot, those at Brentwood get open spots at Dalhousie, and the rest are at Brentwood and Stadium. For $200,000,000 maybe 2000 people, all already LRT users, save 3 minutes off their commute, and the traffic entering the cities core remains static. Inversly, 300,000 voter's are pleased by the road upgrades and appearence of massive savings in commuting times and options....


The problem with the LRT in Calgary right now is not its reach but its capacity. If trains (especially) and parking lots are already full new stations make no difference. Only AFTER capacity into the core is addressed is the reach of the system even an issue....

It is a victim of its own success and appeal...


Claeren.

[Claeren]

Originally posted by Bean+Apr 26 2005, 02:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bean @ Apr 26 2005, 02:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mr. Ski@Apr 26 2005, 06:57 PM
Interesting note: We live pretty far north and were out for a drive the other day and noticed that there's a large sign along the west side Harvest Hills Blvd saying, "Home of Future LRT Station, etc, etc."# This is directly north/west of the bus trap off Beddington Blvd; adjacent to the driving range.

Here's a map and satellite image.# The sign was roughly in the center of the picture on the green space.

Wonder how many year's before that leg of the train gets built, and where else it will go? Anyone know?

Out of curiousity, what would this do for the property values for the houses in the surrounding areas? [/b][/quote]
Without exhaggerating i would suggest best case scenario you see trains up that way by 2050. More likely 2100, at which time who knows what type of transportation options will be available....

Property values in the area not directly impacted in terms of view, traffic, etc., would go up though.... :P


Claeren.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@Apr 26 2005, 03:30 PM
The detour road on this project will take six months to build alone, and should be done by the end of the fall. Glenmore will be down to two lanes each way from MacLeod to Elbow, 5th street will be closed, and the traffic lights on Glenmore removed early next month.

I can picture what that'll look like around Christmas, with the Zoo known as Chinook next to that.

Personally, I never found the Glenmore / Elbow interchange to be THAT bad, but perhaps the times I drove it are not representative. I'm a little wary of City road projects sometimes, anyone remember the intersection work they were doing at Shaganappi and 32nd Ave a few years back? They tore that entire intersection up, diverted traffic, worked it over for 3-4 months, and when all was said and done, it looked like nothing had ever changed (I think they raised the grade 1ft or something). No new turn bays, no new lanes, nothing.

[Resolute 14]

It should be better for Christmas. By the time the xmas shopping season really heats up, the detour road should be open, along with the temporary access to 5th Street. It will suck for me, as I usually just walk to Chinook, but beginning in two weeks when 5th is permanently closed to pedestrian traffic, it will be faster and easier to drive, even though I can see the mall from my balcony.

As for the Glenmore/MacLeod/Elbow interchange/intersection, it is horrible right now. Traffic routinely gets backed up from Elbow to Crowchild in the morning rush, and Elbow to Blackfoot in the evening rush because of those lights. This also tends to screw up MacLeod a little, as cars get stuck waiting on the exit ramps onto WB Glenmore because of the congestion.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally posted by fotze@Apr 26 2005, 06:16 PM
They get 100 million from the feds and they spend it on zoo, a library, science centre and heritage park. They then at the last minute grab the provincial 1% that they lowered from school taxes and whine about our crumbling infrustructure.

See, that's actually one decision I like from Bronco. It takes more than just roads to make a city. Improving these attractions to me has greater benefits (tourism, education, quality of life) in the big picture than shaving 6 minutes off someone's commute time. Bronco proposed a new parkland strategy that I havent heard much about in a long time. I believe several new parks were to be created in Calgary. I'll bet if you graphed the amounts spent on Transportation, it'd dwarf the amount spent on "amenities".

Personally, I'd love to see a new city golf course open up. There was talk of a 36 holer built on the Spy Hill Dump a while back but I haven't heard much on that either.

C'mon, we've all played enough SimCity to know that roads only get you so far!