Schooling Mentally Challenged Children

[flip]

So I have a coworker who has a daughter aged 10 or so. So she's in about grade 4. She goes to a Catholic elementary school.

Here's the issue:

There is a retarted kid in her class (sorry but I'm not PC enough to use mentally challenged all the time) and he is quite disruptive and requires a lot of time from the teacher which should be spent on the other kids. My coworker's daughter has been complaining to her mom that it is very difficult to be in this class because the retarted kid is a constant disruption who requires attn.

My coworker went to the school and complained to the principal of the school on the grounds that a) this child needs more care than the teacher can offer and b) since she is giving him all this care the "normal" kids are losing out on an education.

The principal replied by saying that they do not offer retarted kids special education because the retarted kid needs to be accepted and the "normal" kids need to learn to accept him.

This is great and all that they want to teach tolerance but at the expense of the children's education? I for one remember seeing the "special" kids at school but they were all in their own class and had caregivers with them all the time. Sort of like that Simpsons episode where they move and Bart gets put in the special education class with the Canadian kid Gordie. ("I'm from Canada and they think I'm slow, eh.")

How does everyone feel about this? Personally, while I like tolerance this case is BS, this kid clearly isn't just a little bit slow, and needs to be in an environment with other challenged children where he can receive proper care.

Is this common nowadays? Do you think the Catholic School Board is just too cheap/poor to provide proper care for this kid? Or is the principal serious that we are in such a PC society that retarted kids can't even get special care because it would be offensive to not let them have the same education as everyone else?

Discuss.

[ricoFlame]

integration is really quite common. they're entitled to special care, but it's the parents decision where to school their child. most often, parents choose to have their child in a traditional classroom as long as possible, usually ending after grade 6 or 9 depending on the school.

[flip]

Originally Posted by ricoFlame

integration is really quite common. they're entitled to special care, but it's the parents decision where to school their child. most often, parents choose to have their child in a traditional classroom as long as possible, usually ending after grade 6 or 9 depending on the school.

But can we agree that it is detremental to the other children that they aren't getting a normal education because these parents don't want to have to put their kid in a special ed. program?

It reminds me of the type of crap where kids can't eat peanut butter or wear deoderant if someone is allergic to peanuts or sensitive to smells.

I say the responsibility falls on the minority to deal with it not the majority of "normal" kids to suffer because of someone else's condition.

[moon]

As a grade 3 teacher my wife says that she sees kids that likely disrupt her classes as much or more than this kid and those kids aren't "######ed."

She has to spend plenty of time with a few kids that need extra help and therefore some of the other kids are going to get less time.

I guess my question would be that if it were a "normal" kid would the parent or even child be reacting this strongly? Or could it be that they see that the kid is different and automatically go to a stronger/more severe position than they would in the same situation with a kid that was not ######ed.

I am not accusing them of being jerks towards the "######ed" people, but I do think that it would be a natural reaction for many people to overblow the behaviors/distractions of this one kid because of preconceived notions about how "######ed" will act and where they should be in school.

Personally, I would hope the school ships out the co-worker and her daughter before they do the "######ed" kid.

[Fire]

Mentally challenged kids should definitely be in a separate classroom for their benefit and the benefit of the other children.

Is the mentally challenged kid really at a 4th grade level or is he/she just the same age as the other children?

[NuclearFart]

Put me in the group that thinks they should be in a separate class for the benefit of both parties.

Anyways, if this kid is as "retarted" as you say, its probably only a matter of time before the kid is held back a year and gone from your friends daughters year.

[prarieboy]

Originally Posted by flip

So I have a coworker who has a daughter aged 10 or so. So she's in about grade 4. She goes to a Catholic elementary school.

Here's the issue:

There is a retarted kid in her class (sorry but I'm not PC enough to use mentally challenged all the time) and he is quite disruptive and requires a lot of time from the teacher which should be spent on the other kids. My coworker's daughter has been complaining to her mom that it is very difficult to be in this class because the retarted kid is a constant disruption who requires attn.

My coworker went to the school and complained to the principal of the school on the grounds that a) this child needs more care than the teacher can offer and b) since she is giving him all this care the "normal" kids are losing out on an education.

The principal replied by saying that they do not offer retarted kids special education because the retarted kid needs to be accepted and the "normal" kids need to learn to accept him.

This is great and all that they want to teach tolerance but at the expense of the children's education? I for one remember seeing the "special" kids at school but they were all in their own class and had caregivers with them all the time. Sort of like that Simpsons episode where they move and Bart gets put in the special education class with the Canadian kid Gordie. ("I'm from Canada and they think I'm slow, eh.")

How does everyone feel about this? Personally, while I like tolerance this case is BS, this kid clearly isn't just a little bit slow, and needs to be in an environment with other challenged children where he can receive proper care.

Is this common nowadays? Do you think the Catholic School Board is just too cheap/poor to provide proper care for this kid? Or is the principal serious that we are in such a PC society that retarted kids can't even get special care because it would be offensive to not let them have the same education as everyone else?

Discuss.

I think the principal makes a valid point here. Tolerence of others is something everyone can benefit from be it a mental disability, physical disability or racial for that matter.

How long has this been a problem? The school year just started, have these two kids been together since Grade 1? It's quite likely the disabled individual will learn the ropes and be less of a disruption as time goes by.

If he/she is severly disabled they wouldn't be there to begin with.

It's hard to say for sure without more information about the disability if it is a good placement.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by flip

It reminds me of the type of crap where kids can't eat peanut butter or wear deoderant if someone is allergic to peanuts or sensitive to smells.

Having worked with someone that was allergic to both things you mentioned and witnessed her firsthand going into anaphylactic shock, I can't tell you enough how that "type of crap" however inconvenient to others it may be, is totally necessary to prevent potential loss of life.

It's no joke.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by flip

There is a ######ed kid in her class (sorry but I'm not PC enough to use mentally challenged all the time)

Fixed! Irony can be really killer sometimes.



Back on topic, If this (or any) child needs assistance to function at a normal level in any setting then they should be provided that assistance. If the teacher can't handle providing that assistance, then perhaps there should be an assistant who is able to help with the class and still enable the all the children involved to recieve the full benifit of our educational system.

However, If this child's parents and medical caregivers have decided that they do not want this option for their child, then they should have the right to have some say in the way their child is educated. And as such, they should be responsible for any additional costs to maintain this education. Either though insurance, health care or some other provincial funding.

If the school board is making this choice for them, as a blanket policy or on an individual basis, then the board should be responsible to cover the expenses.

[ma-skis.com]

This is pretty normal at elementary, as the parent you have choices regarding where your child goes to school, whether it is the public / catholic / charter / private systems. It all comes down on what you feel fits your childs needs in terms of development.

Mind you regardless of what type of students are in the class there will always be high needs students. I have had several classes full of "normal" kids but there are always kids who are high needs / high attention.

The Principal is basically stating the direction the education is moving towards, you don't really see kids being streamed in different classes anymore until late junior high and high school.

Here's an interesting question though, is it really a case that this parent is concerned that the disruptive student needs special care, or that their kid is not getting their "fair share"?

The other thing is if the ultimate goal of education is to develop adults who can successfully interact and operate within society how does separating the groups help anyone?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by flip

So I have a coworker who has a daughter aged 10 or so. So she's in about grade 4. She goes to a Catholic elementary school.

Here's the issue:

There is a retarted kid in her class (sorry but I'm not PC enough to use mentally challenged all the time) and he is quite disruptive and requires a lot of time from the teacher which should be spent on the other kids. My coworker's daughter has been complaining to her mom that it is very difficult to be in this class because the retarted kid is a constant disruption who requires attn.

My coworker went to the school and complained to the principal of the school on the grounds that a) this child needs more care than the teacher can offer and b) since she is giving him all this care the "normal" kids are losing out on an education.

The principal replied by saying that they do not offer retarted kids special education because the retarted kid needs to be accepted and the "normal" kids need to learn to accept him.

The principal is wrong in this situation and shows great ignorance. The student in question clearly has a learning disability that requires extra attention. Through no fault of his own he is being a drain the teachers time and resources thus impacting in a negitive way the education of the rest of the kids. Clearly the kid needs an aide that will work with him/her during class time.

This is great and all that they want to teach tolerance but at the expense of the children's education? I for one remember seeing the "special" kids at school but they were all in their own class and had caregivers with them all the time. Sort of like that Simpsons episode where they move and Bart gets put in the special education class with the Canadian kid Gordie. ("I'm from Canada and they think I'm slow, eh.")

Give them aide and in most cases they can survive in a class of normal students. The teacher will be able to focus on the needs of the rest of the students.

How does everyone feel about this? Personally, while I like tolerance this case is BS, this kid clearly isn't just a little bit slow, and needs to be in an environment with other challenged children where he can receive proper care.

Is this common nowadays? Do you think the Catholic School Board is just too cheap/poor to provide proper care for this kid? Or is the principal serious that we are in such a PC society that retarted kids can't even get special care because it would be offensive to not let them have the same education as everyone else?

I clearly think this is a funding issue where the CSB can't afford to give this kid the aide he/she really needs. Trying to integrate kids with learning disabilities with normal kids will doom this kid to poor grades without an aide. I know a family in the Hat that had to deal with similar garbage like this. There was no aide available for thier child iin ES and the mother ended up quitting a good paying job so she could work with her son in an effort to help him pass his classes. The son got an aide in JH and ended up on the honor role. Lost the aide in HS and his grades floundered.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Having worked with someone that was allergic to both things you mentioned and witnessed her firsthand going into anaphylactic shock, I can't tell you enough how that "type of crap" however inconvenient to others it may be, is totally necessary to prevent potential loss of life.

It's no joke.

My issue here isn't with the fact that these kids have conditions/allergies, it is that literally hundreds and sometimes thousands of other people have to change perfectly normal habits and be inconvenienced to make one kid comfortable.

It'd be like banning peanuts at the dome because someone might have an allergy. If you have an unfortunate allergy you're just going to have to deal with it. If society has to make an occasional change to suit them then fine, but to change culture based on one person seems rediculous.

[ma-skis.com]

Originally Posted by flip

It'd be like banning peanuts at the dome because someone might have an allergy. If you have an unfortunate allergy you're just going to have to deal with it. If society has to make an occasional change to suit them then fine, but to change culture based on one person seems rediculous.

At the dome you're assuming kids are being reasonably supervised, the peanut ban thing is mostly seen in elementary schools where kids are still learning how to safely monitor and handle their allergies. You don't really see the blanket ban in High Schools.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by flip

My issue here isn't with the fact that these kids have conditions/allergies, it is that literally hundreds and sometimes thousands of other people have to change perfectly normal habits and be inconvenienced to make one kid comfortable.

It'd be like banning peanuts at the dome because someone might have an allergy. If you have an unfortunate allergy you're just going to have to deal with it. If society has to make an occasional change to suit them then fine, but to change culture based on one person seems rediculous.

Dude, it's not a comfort issue. It's a life or death issue. It's that serious.

This individual hasn't been to the cinema in 20+ years, never mind a hockey game. People with these extreme allergies stay away from risk areas. Hell, she says that she avoids malls if at all possible and department stores with cosmetics.

I'm not attacking you but this is a serious issue. They do deal with it. They avoid places like the Dome and cinemas.

They're not IMO holding society to ransom, just asking for the right to education and to work in an environment that for them is non life threatening. Sorta like people asking others not to smoke at work.

Asking people to refrain from peanuts and heavy perfumes isn't really culture changing IMO.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by ricoFlame

integration is really quite common. they're entitled to special care, but it's the parents decision where to school their child. most often, parents choose to have their child in a traditional classroom as long as possible, usually ending after grade 6 or 9 depending on the school.

Strongly disagree. Special care is a problem in public and seperate schools due to a lack of funding. Parents want what's best for their kids and sadly they have no choice but to integrate them without any help.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Dude, it's not a comfort issue. It's a life or death issue. It's that serious.

This individual hasn't been to the cinema in 20+ years, never mind a hockey game. People with these extreme allergies stay away from risk areas. Hell, she says that she avoids malls if at all possible and department stores with cosmetics.

I'm not attacking you but this is a serious issue. They do deal with it. They avoid places like the Dome and cinemas.

They're not IMO holding society to ransom, just asking for the right to education and to work in an environment that for them is non life threatening. Sorta like people asking others not to smoke at work.

Asking people to refrain from peanuts and heavy perfumes isn't really culture changing IMO.

Wel stated!

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by flip

My issue here isn't with the fact that these kids have conditions/allergies, it is that literally hundreds and sometimes thousands of other people have to change perfectly normal habits and be inconvenienced to keep one kid alive.

Fixed again!

Lots of people have to change 'normal' habits for the greater good of society.

Smokers can't smoke in public buildings anymore, even though smoking was at one time considered totally normal. You wanna get on your soap box and cry out for the rights of the poor abused smoker who needs to stand in the rain to get hit nic fix? Second hand smoke doesn't kill you instantly without medical intervention like a peanut butter sandwich to the face of an allergic child.

Get used to the world changing, it happens every day. If you don't want to be on the boat then I suggest you get off, cuz nothing you will do will make it always stay the same.

[bigtmac19]

I'm surprised a child at this level does not have a full time aide. Both times that my kids had this issue in their class and/or grade, the child did have a full time aide.

I can't believe the parent of the child in question (special needs) isn't advocating and insisting that their child have a full time aide while at school.

The grade school my kids went to however, was designated in the board as a special ed school, so maybe it was more progressive in these situations.

The kids still had some issues with these students, but not to this extent.

[OilersBaby]

Here in California, the concept you described - inclusion - is very common. They believe that by integrating the special needs children into a regular classroom, the special needs children will benefit and so will the regular kids (because they will be more tolerant of people who are different). The entire education curriculum's at universities here is based on mainstreaming the exceptional pupil.

[metal_geek]

Originally Posted by ma-skis.com

At the dome you're assuming kids are being reasonably supervised, the peanut ban thing is mostly seen in elementary schools where kids are still learning how to safely monitor and handle their allergies. You don't really see the blanket ban in High Schools.

Exactly right!!...

I don't blame flip for thinking this way.... it's the typical ignorance some people have. I can only guess what his attitude would be if this were an issue that affected him personally...

As for the co workers kid... I'm willing to bet that at this age she'll learn more from dealing with this situation then she ever will from her grade 4 math book. Her mother needs to get a grip.