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Old 09-26-2008, 07:16 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Hack&Lube View Post
The city could have curtailed all this with proper zoning laws.
What do you mean by this, though? Like, if the city said something like, "No more new subdivisions, you must rehabilitate existing ones" we'd all be better off?

You could ask someone from Winnipeg how that works. All you'd end up with is the bedroom communities throwing open their doors and saying, "Backyards for all!" to end that great experiment.
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:22 PM   #122
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What do you mean by this, though? Like, if the city said something like, "No more new subdivisions, you must rehabilitate existing ones" we'd all be better off?

You could ask someone from Winnipeg how that works. All you'd end up with is the bedroom communities throwing open their doors and saying, "Backyards for all!" to end that great experiment.
I'm just an authoritarian architect. I want the city to put a limit on it's boundaries and force people to build up and not out anymore. If people want backyards, too bad. I don't want them to have them. I find communal recreation spaces like in big cities so much better.
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:26 PM   #123
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Well sure, it's a nice thing to think but it's not going to happen as long as there is limitless opportunity for physical growth of the city. The most important thing is to grow the city in an intelligent way. Suburbs like Garrison Wood and McKenzie Towne (sure, I'm biased since I live there) are a great example of this.
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:42 PM   #124
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Like the Wallstreet crisis, greed is to blame. Cheap and abundant land and developers building suburbs like there is no tomorrow...

The city could have curtailed all this with proper zoning laws.
I'm not a fan of this post. Too vague.

Greed is to blame? Greed how? Like homeowners are greedy for wanting a house and yard? Or they're greedy for wanting a place they can afford? Or is it the evil land developers that are greedy?

You do know that society does not function well when a small portion of the people own the majority of land, right? So why is it a bad thing if the wealth is spread out among the middle class? I see nothing wrong with a middle class, and to have a middle class, property ownership is key.

Is it the land developers that you're chastizing? If so, why? They're just providing a product that is in demand. Just like clothes makers and electricity providers. It's not like houses are being build on the outskirts of town while inner city condos are left vacant. There are higher density projects all over the city that are selling and filling up just as fast as the 'sprawling' suburbs. People are still moving here and they need places to live.

As for city zoning laws, judging by your comment, I doubt you're very familiar with the zoning laws in Calgary, or in any city. Getting land re-zoned in Calgary is not easy. The application process takes forever. And it's not lax at all.
What are these proper zoning laws you speak of? I can tell you that if zoning laws in Calgary were the type that forced people to build up instead of out, people would simply move to Red Deer or Dirty-Stinking-Mulletville, and Calgary would quickly become stagnant.
Zoning a city is like walking a tightrope. It has to be flexible enough to be appealing to developers and buyers, but still be strict enough to keep development orderly.

So what I'm saying is that your comment makes it sound like we're in the wild west and people are sticking flags in the dirt and building things arbitrarily, which is simply not true. And greed may be the root of the problem, but greed is also the root of every other problem known to man, so pointing out it's presence in this equation is moot.
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:45 PM   #125
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It's pretty obvious what his intentions are. Suzuki is anti-industry. Calgary is the centre of the energy industry in Calgary and it get's his goat so he fires off salvo's at the city.
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Old 09-26-2008, 08:53 PM   #126
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For me it's not a matter of Backyard vs. No Yard or whatever, but rather that I think a similarly-sized condo is going to cost us about the same after maintenance fees and everything else as compared to my house - so why wouldn't I buy a house instead? We live in a duplex, it's a small place, I'd live in a townhouse, but I don't see the point in condo fees. Admittedly, I've not done a lot of research into condo living, but that's where our decision was based on.

Suzuki's like Greenpeace or PETA ... why would you listen to him and take him seriously anyway? Just point and laugh. I make my choices, different people make their own choices, so let's just all get off our high horses and let people be.
Or we should organize groups to goto Suzuki's house and start complaining about how he lives his life. Kind of like when Jerry Seinfeld went to heckle the heckler at her job.

"Daaavid this bathroom is a disaster, can't you keep anything clean?"

"Daaavid your hair is like a rats nest. Don't you know that responsible people get haircuts"

"Daaavid, Daavid, David....."
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Old 09-26-2008, 09:22 PM   #127
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We've all known for some time that Calgary is one of the most sprawled cities in the world, this is not new. (Though you should see Melbourne, WOW!) Can't really dis Suzuki for telling us the sky is blue.

We've been lucky to have more land around us, but now is the time to start building up and in, and creating a much larger train system (among many other helpful suggestions people have offered in this thread). Calgary is going to continue to grow quickly for at least the next 50 years, so the extra land and space is going to come in handy. We need to get some infrastructure down like more mass transit, and plan for those next 50 years.
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Old 09-26-2008, 09:34 PM   #128
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We've all known for some time that Calgary is one of the most sprawled cities in the world, this is not new. (Though you should see Melbourne, WOW!) Can't really dis Suzuki for telling us the sky is blue.
That is such bull. I have traveled all over North America, and Calgary is not even close to being one of the most sprawled cities in the world. The thing that sets it apart is that Calgary is one large city, instead of a conglomeration of several smaller cities.

I'm sorry, but this is Suzuki grandstanding so he can keep up the illusion that he knows what he is talking about.
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Old 09-26-2008, 09:40 PM   #129
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Yeah but that's the credo of the pro-high density people. Part of their schtick is to point out numerous ways in which their lifestyle is superior and how it's wasteful to allow people those choices. They also like to point out that they are paying higher taxes to afford you that choice. I'd argue that their lifestyles have their own costs which are mostly subsidized by suburbanites, but appearing to be against higher arts funding and albatross pedestrian footbridges would render you open to being called a "rube," and "lacking vision." Not a whole lot of "live and let live" types in that crowd.
Let me rewrite that from the other side:

"That's the credo of the suburbanites. Part of their schtick is to point out numerous ways in which their lifestyle is superior and how it's essential that city planning never changes to reflect new realities. They also like to point out that it's their god-given right to be subsidized in their lifestyle choice. I'd argue that their lifestyles lead to disconnected communities and huge infrastructure costs, but voting against $50 million dollar interchanges and yet more square miles of mall parking lots would render you open to being called a "socialist" and "anti-freedom". Quite a few "I've got mine and screw how it affects the rest of the world" types in that crowd."
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Old 09-26-2008, 11:33 PM   #130
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The problem with the anti suburbanites is that they fault the people for purchasing the product that is right for them.
No, they fault the city for allowing this to happen because of a lack of urban planning policy in tune with 21st century growth, leading to all kinds of whopping infrastructure, cultural and environmental problems as a result.

Can't fault someone for wanting to live in a cheap place; however, I would hope these people aren't complaining about the money gas is costing them as a result; they made the executive choice to live great distances from everything else.
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:19 AM   #131
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My taking on this is if they force us all to move into apartments and crowd us in, isn't that telling us where to live and how to live, isn't that a form of communism?

I'll tell you why I love the suburbs.

A) I hate neighbours, thats why I am moving to an acreage eventually, living in the suburbs minimizes my chance of running into stupid people often..
B) I don't need to pay 400 dollars in condo fees to have someone shovel the walkway out front once every two weeks in the winter, I also don't need to pay for bozo the clown in the complex that likes to keep his window open when its -40 and than crank the heat while he pigs out on chips and sits there in shorts without a shirt on.
C) I got a decent backyard, and its fenced off. I can allow my kid to play in the backyard keep it locked and not worry about them as much. I can still get my stuff done around the house. If I am in a condo I have to go to the park with them, I can't say that I always have the time.
D) I like living in a place thats 2000 square feet and not 800 square feet to raise my children. Sometimes I need my own space.
E) I hate big crowds
F) I like working outside in the summer on the week-end in my yard. I like growing fresh ORGANIC veggies instead of buying crap in the stores in the summer.
G) I work downtown and I can tell you that by the end of the day I am ready to get home and get out downtown. I couldn't imagine working there and living there, I'd feel like I am trapped.


I can go on but I won't I will just get too angry.
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:23 AM   #132
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How much time has Suzuki actually spent living in Calgary to come to such a conclusion?
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:24 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by psicodude View Post
That is such bull. I have traveled all over North America, and Calgary is not even close to being one of the most sprawled cities in the world. The thing that sets it apart is that Calgary is one large city, instead of a conglomeration of several smaller cities.

I'm sorry, but this is Suzuki grandstanding so he can keep up the illusion that he knows what he is talking about.
???

Exactly one city as compared to others that grew into each other.

One large sprawling vs Many large and sprawling. How does that help your point? It means we as one take up as much as many that are more than one.

And on the point of Suzuki I think it's disappointing he is so looked down upon in many parts of his own country while universitys around the world have him as required reading.

He's actually a very smart individual.
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:33 AM   #134
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I agree, its disappointing he resorts to quotes that he knows will actually work against the causes he believes in, because I believe he is intelligents and has a positive place on the planet.
Yeah, he can be a bit too divisive and overbearing at times, for sure. Unfortunately I'm sure that just comes with the territory of being an 'activist'. No one really listens to you if you aren't alarmist enough, and if you go far in the other direction you end up selling out your values.
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:35 AM   #135
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A guy who lives in 2 "glass" mansions and travels the country in a diesel monster bus or First Class air seats shouldn't be tossing enviromental disaster stones.
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:39 AM   #136
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I'm sure he offsets his carbon footprint somehow. I think it's important he does travel with his message. I mean he's not using the travel to play hockey games, drill holes in the earth or anything to that effect.

As for his houses I don't know much about the subject, but I'm feeling another HOZ style bait and switch coming up if we press you on any facts.
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:45 AM   #137
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Yeah, he can be a bit too divisive and overbearing at times, for sure. Unfortunately I'm sure that just comes with the territory of being an 'activist'. No one really listens to you if you aren't alarmist enough, and if you go far in the other direction you end up selling out your values.
I pretty sure he sold out his values by picking up a cheque from enmax for those energy conservation commercials.
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Old 09-27-2008, 01:02 AM   #138
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The problem with the anti suburbanites is that they fault the people for purchasing the product that is right for them.
Well, I think the problem is the idea that there are "pro-suburbanites" and "anti-suburbanites". You are right that people can't be faulted for choosing to live in the suburbs if it is affordable and they want to live there; on the other hand, you can't fault people who see that this style of life is not sustainable in the long run without cheap energy, massive transport infrastructure and a wasteful use of land - none of which are particularly likely nor sensible.

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My taking on this is if they force us all to move into apartments and crowd us in, isn't that telling us where to live and how to live, isn't that a form of communism?
Yes, yes, "they" are going to put the suburban masses into cattlecars and ship you off to massive concrete slums. Clearly this is the secret plan, but now that you have penetrated the conspiracy we'll have to rethink our plans. Curses!

-----

This reminds me of the last time there was this discussion - I thought it was reasonable that in 2030-2035 to plan for a quarter million people would living downtown and another million or so out of the core - in other words, 20-25% of the population would live in dense housing with the rest of the city much as it is now. This, of course, was seen as sheer madness and an attempt to socially engineer the population; ignoring the reality that suburbs breed their own version of social engineers whose middle-class values are not the entirety of human experience any more than the inner-city dwelling apartment dweller's are.
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Old 09-27-2008, 01:09 AM   #139
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I pretty sure he sold out his values by picking up a cheque from enmax for those energy conservation commercials.
You're saying preaching energy conservation should require you don't get paid?

I don't think he would have done it if he didn't agree with the message or the company. Yes Enmax is big electricy, but they are growing (slowly) in the right direction, and it was a message that needed to get out anyway.

More people are probably going to get that message or info through their electricity company than through going to his lectures.
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Old 09-27-2008, 10:21 AM   #140
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My taking on this is if they force us all to move into apartments and crowd us in, isn't that telling us where to live and how to live, isn't that a form of communism?
Emphasis added.

You might want to read this.

Nobody is discussing forcing anyone to move anywhere, and nobody is suggesting we bulldoze the suburbs and replace the single-family homes with high-rise condos. What is being suggested is that future community developments in Calgary are designed to combat sprawl, have a greater amount of higher-density housing, and that neighbourhoods are built to be "walkable", meaning residents can live, work, play, and run their errands (such as grocery shopping, etc.) without having to use their cars. Oddly enough, this is exactly what Calgary's urban planners are already doing.

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A guy who lives in 2 "glass" mansions and travels the country in a diesel monster bus or First Class air seats shouldn't be tossing enviromental disaster stones.
And you might want to read this.
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