Pool (8-ball) Rules

[Temporary_User]

I play pool casually at the pubs fairly often. The other day a couple friends and I were out playing. Since it was just the 3 of us playing, one of us would sit out and play the winner. A guy at the pub saw the 3 of us switching in and out, so he asked if we cared if he joined us inorder to make doubles. We agreed.
Now I only play at pubs, so I'm not too familiar with the specific rules (as if creating this thread wasn't obvious enough). I'm curious as to whether I have simply been misinformed about the rules throughout the years, or if this guy has been, or if he is correct but simply a rule nazi.

The first instance that I figured this guy was a rule nazi, was on my first shot. He broke and didn't sink anything. I shot my ball, and it went in the intended pocket. This guy calls out that my ball bumped one of the other balls (not necessarily his at this point) on the way in that was not my intended ball nor the same kind. No one else saw this, as no one else was really paying attention.
I don't know the rules on this, I thought since my intended ball went in, that it was all fair. Since I wasn't sure, I let his team take the next shot. He also stated that it should still open table.

The 2nd instance was off a scratch. I always played that you had to place the cue ball behind the 2nd triangle and had to hit it past the 3rd triangle from the other side (hopefully that makes sense). After a scratch, this guy set his ball up on the 2nd triangle, but simply shot the next closest ball into the side pocket. I asked him about that rule, and he stated that you only had to go forward with it. ???

The third was on a shot my friend had to take. We only had one ball left on the table (other than the 8-ball). This ball was completely blocked in by 2 of his balls and the railing. There wasn't really a chance my friend could hit our ball, but inorder to take a shot he decided to try. I know that if our ball had went in after hitting one of his balls first, we would have had to give up our next shot. However, none went in, and since the cue ball hit the other guys ball first, this guy stated that it was "ball in hand", and he proceeded to place the cue ball on the table to his liking and proceeded to hit another ball in (obviously an extremely easy shot since he basically put it right in front of it, a perfect location).

I always play simply for fun. Will only play for drinks if the other person suggests it. I would just simply like to know more of the rules in case I run across a fellow like this guy again, and that way I know.

[Jayems]

Instance 1: unless you called the ball off the other one, he's right. I've never played a bar game where 'fluke' shots were allowed.

Instance 2: not sure what you mean, but I've always played that a sunk ball scratch (teeheehee) is you can move the ball anywhere behind the line, but must shoot forward.

Instance 3: If he intentionally tried to 'hook' you, meaning he deliberately made the balls lie so you couldn't hit the 8, then you don't have to worry about scratching. If he didn't do it on purpose, and you don't hit the 8 first, game over.

Thats my interpretation. Others may play different.

[Temporary_User]

Thanks for the quick reply. I know my post was sort of hard to understand, but it seems I may simply just not know the rules.

Originally Posted by Jayems

Instance 1: unless you called the ball off the other one, he's right. I've never played a bar game where 'fluke' shots were allowed.

Well I didn't call it off the other ball, I hit the cue ball, and that hit my intended object. I don't know if it lightly bumped one of the other balls or not, he said it did. I wouldn't have called it a fluke shot, as I hit the intended ball and it went in the intended pocket.

Instance 2: not sure what you mean, but I've always played that a sunk ball scratch (teeheehee) is you can move the ball anywhere behind the line, but must shoot forward.

ok, so i knew that it had to be behind the line, but I thought you had to hit a ball that was beyond the corresponding line on the other side of the table. Where the first ball is placed on a break.

Instance 3: If he intentionally tried to 'hook' you, meaning he deliberately made the balls lie so you couldn't hit the 8, then you don't have to worry about scratching. If he didn't do it on purpose, and you don't hit the 8 first, game over.

sorry, we weren't shooting the 8ball at this point. I tried to state that this was the only ball that we could have possibly hit at this point. Since I play for fun, I don't really pay too much attention to others shots, so I don't know if he intended his balls to block mine in (I doubt it though). What I was wondering, since we had to hit our own ball, we made an attempt to do so. Since we hit one of his balls first he stated that he could place the ball wherever he liked on the table, rather then just shooting from where the ball landed.
Also I guess, if he was alowed to do so, what other options did we have inorder to not give him "ball in hand"

Hope this clears things up a bit.
Thanks

[doozwimp]

With 3 friends you should be playing Cutthroat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutthroat_(pool)

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by Jayems

Instance 1: unless you called the ball off the other one, he's right. I've never played a bar game where 'fluke' shots were allowed.

disagree, call your pocket how it gets there doesn't matter.

Instance 2: not sure what you mean, but I've always played that a sunk ball scratch (teeheehee) is you can move the ball anywhere behind the line, but must shoot forward.

Yeah ball just has to go forward

Instance 3: If he intentionally tried to 'hook' you, meaning he deliberately made the balls lie so you couldn't hit the 8, then you don't have to worry about scratching. If he didn't do it on purpose, and you don't hit the 8 first, game over.

If you miss the 8 he gets ball in hand, same if you hit one of his balls first and do not make the 8, if the cue ball goes in a pocket, the 8 goes in the wrong pocket or you sink the 8 after hitting his ball first then you lose.

But then again there are multiple sets of rules but thats how we play.

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by Temporary_User

Even if you hit your intended ball into your intended pocket and it just barely touches another ball, if you didn;t call it, it's considered a fluke shot.

You have to call the kiss off another ball (at least depending on who you're playing with.)

Yeah, you have to shoot forward. You can't shoot a backwards at a ball behind the line. You'd have to shoot forward and bank off a rail or two and try that way.

Yeah, if you hit anything other than your ball first, it's a scratch. I've only played ball in hand in 9 ball though... usually a scratch is just play it where it lays unless it was pocketed, then see instance #2.


Hope this clears things up a bit.
Thanks

I think... haha

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by Dan02

disagree, call your pocket how it gets there doesn't matter.

Only in 9 ball, imo, is that acceptable. But since he's playing 8, I've always had to call my shots. Unless it's and obvious straight in shot, you have to call banks off other balls, no matter how small the contact is

[Gord_Wappel]

The guy you were playing was making his own rules by the sound of it. Combining "bar rules" and "valley rules"... If playing bar rules you cannot "kiss" or bounce off another ball before going in the pocket. Valley it doesnt matter....as long as you call the pocket it doesnt matter how it gets there.

Scratch rule for bar - ball must be behind the line and make contact at or ahead of the line.

Scratch rule for valley is "ball in hand" and ball can be placed anywhere on the table.

Not hitting last ball is either back to the line - bar rules or "ball in hand" valley rules. The guy you played looks like he was conveniently picking which rules to play depending on how the game went.

Originally Posted by Jayems

Only in 9 ball, imo, is that acceptable. But since he's playing 8, I've always had to call my shots. Unless it's and obvious straight in shot, you have to call banks off other balls, no matter how small the contact is

[sadora]

Originally Posted by Dan02

disagree, call your pocket how it gets there doesn't matter..

There's a lot of people out there that are sticklers about calling everything, including kissing off another ball.

Here's wiki's entry on the rules including International, United Kingdom, Canadian and US rules.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-ball

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Gord_Wappel

The guy you were playing was making his own rules by the sound of it. Combining "bar rules" and "valley rules"... If playing bar rules you cannot "kiss" or bounce off another ball before going in the pocket. Valley it doesnt matter....as long as you call the pocket it doesnt matter how it gets there.

Scratch rule for bar - ball must be behind the line and make contact at or ahead of the line.

Scratch rule for valley is "ball in hand" and ball can be placed anywhere on the table.

Not hitting last ball is either back to the line - bar rules or "ball in hand" valley rules. The guy you played looks like he was conveniently picking which rules to play depending on how the game went.

Good answer. I agree with everything Gord says.

It's good to ask Valley rules or Bar rules before you start a game with a stranger in a bar. I always prefer Valley rules, because they are the most consistent, and least cause for fights. Bar rules seem to have some variations on whether flukes are allowed, kisses have to be called, ball in hand. But generally speaking Valley and bar are the way Gord describes.

[ken0042]

Seems a few people are making claims of absolutes; but the rules you speak of are very different between league rules and what we usually call "bar" rules.

In league play you call your ball and your pocket. And as long as the cue ball hits one of your balls first, it doesn't matter what transpires as long as the ball you called goes into the pocket you called. So in the first instance the guy was playing by "bar" rules.

But in the second instance of ball in hand due to being hooked; that is an example of league rules. In league play you will sometimes go for a shot to hook the other player; giving you ball in hand back.

IMO it appears he was playing a hybrid of rules. Best bet in this case is ask the person what set of rules he is playing by. Most people won't know; and at that point you can set the rules as you see fit.

[Prototype]

I never play anyone other than friends at the bar. My experience is that anyone else will either want to play for money, or for drinks, and will lie, cheat or steal their way to the win.

When I play friends, nobody cares about the trivial things.

Bar Rules to me are just what you can get the other guy to believe. If I owned a bar, I'd post rules on the wall.

[You Need a Thneed]

I don't play much, but simple manners says that if he's asked to play with your group, that he should play by whatever rules you are using, no matter what they are.

It sounds to me like he was just trying to say only the rule variants that benefited himself, at the time.

[Sainters7]

Interesting to read about the difference between "bar" rules and "valley" rules, I didn't know anything about valley rules.

As for your game, for the first thing, I agree with the guy. You can't "kiss" off a ball, unless you called it. The way I've always played at the bar, not only do you have to call which pocket, but also how you're going to do it. On the 2nd rule, I agree with him too. You must shoot it forward only(or completely sideways). You can't shoot backwards. As for the "ball in hand" thing, thats junk. I would've put up a stink if someone pulled that on me at the bar, thats clearly not proper "bar" rules.

Bar rules can be pretty anal, I agree. But when playing strangers, I always follow them. If you play your own specific personal way/rules, its bound to lead to a fight, as everyone may play differently. Which is why I always follow the anal bar rules when out at the bar, at least its uniform and everyone can agree. So as anal as it was, I have to agree with everything the guy did, with the exception of the ball-in-hand thing(I've never had anyone do that before at the bar, thats just weird).

PS- On a side note though, was it just you and your two buddies playing at the table for awhile with no other patrons clearly interested in playing, and this guy just decided to join in? Because if it was clear that you guys were just messin around having fun, then in that instance I would've just conformed to your rules if I was the guy. I probably would've been internally rolling my eyes when you thought your kiss counted, and when you thought you could shoot it backwards, but I would've played along, seeing as its just you and your buddies and I joined in. This guy sounds like he was being a dousche. You dont join a group and proceed to dictate the rules.

[Jayems]

When i lived in Medicine Hat, we always used to play against the Brit soldiers who were in town staying up at the Suffield base... and damn, those limey s have some goofed up rules. Scratch = 2 shots for the other team, bunch of crap. I once double tapped the cue ball after they scratched and they counted it as two... haha.

Stupid nanny state and their silly rules.

[Locke]

I too typically only play at the bar, but if I'm playing against someone I dont know, I will typically hash out the rules beforehand.

[Temporary_User]

Originally Posted by Sainters7

On a side note though, was it just you and your two buddies playing at the table for awhile with no other patrons clearly interested in playing, and this guy just decided to join in? Because if it was clear that you guys were just messin around having fun, then in that instance I would've just conformed to your rules if I was the guy. I probably would've been internally rolling my eyes when you thought your kiss counted, and when you thought you could shoot it backwards, but I would've played along, seeing as its just you and your buddies and I joined in. This guy sounds like he was being a dousche. You dont join a group and proceed to dictate the rules.

Yeah it was my roommate and friend. Bar was basically empty, one other pool table was going unused.

Again I know I didn't explain it too well, but I didn't, nor did he try to shoot the ball backwards after the scratch (#2). I don't know where I got it in my head, but I always played that not only do you have to shoot forward, but you also have to have the cue ball pass a certain spot on the table before it makes contact with one of your balls (that spot being the line where the triangle starts on a break).
This guy placed the cue ball on the line and tapped in an easy shot into the side pocket. I didn't know you could do that.
Now I am curious as to how I came to believe that this was a rule (I have played this way without having to say anything to others many times before).

I agree on the ######bag comment though. I guess that is half of why his ruling calling bugged me so much. It was just the 3 of us having fun. None of us are that good (including him). For one thing on our 2nd game at the end he would pretent to fake cough as a joke to mess us up. I just rolled my eyes (my friends aswell). We did get some laughs out of this guy though. From the way he seemed to prance to the bathroom/bar, to the blatantly and extremely lame way he was hitting on my roommate right from the get go.

[Sainters7]

Originally Posted by Temporary_User

Again I know I didn't explain it too well, but I didn't, nor did he try to shoot the ball backwards after the scratch (#2). I don't know where I got it in my head, but I always played that not only do you have to shoot forward, but you also have to have the cue ball pass a certain spot on the table before it makes contact with one of your balls (that spot being the line where the triangle starts on a break).
This guy placed the cue ball on the line and tapped in an easy shot into the side pocket. I didn't know you could do that.

I agree on the ######bag comment though. I guess that is half of why his ruling calling bugged me so much. It was just the 3 of us having fun. None of us are that good (including him). For one thing on our 2nd game at the end he would pretent to fake cough as a joke to mess us up. I just rolled my eyes (my friends aswell). We did get some laughs out of this guy though. From the way he seemed to prance to the bathroom/bar, to the blatantly and extremely lame way he was hitting on my roommate right from the get go.

Hmm...yeah, I've never heard of that before(your perceived perception of the rule). As far as I know, as long as you have your ball on the break line, and are not shooting backwards, it doesn't matter if you hit a ball two inches in front of the cue ball.

As for your description of the dude in your final paragraph, haha ya I know the type, typical bar trash with his head up his ass. Dictating rules to you guys, coughing during your shots like he's an old buddy, even hitting on your roommate, who for all he knows is one of your guys' girlfriends...he's actually lucky he didn't get his ass kicked, which could've very well happened if he did that to the wrong group of guys. It almost sounds like he was a little hammed.

[burn_baby_burn]

Some bars that I used to play at had a big sign with the rules on them. I think the sign was provided by the ALCB or something to that effect. I would agree with the guy on the first two rulings. Have never heard of the third. I would have told him to stick it.

[Traditional_Ale]

I play a lot of pool.

There are some silly "bar rules" out there, but they seem to be popular and the norm. According to the BCA (Billiard Congress of America) rule-book 2008 (which I am currently holding in my hands...):

(paraphrasing...)

- Said object ball must be struck first and land in the intended pocket unimpeded (untouched) by any other balls (your own or the opponents). As long as said ball lands in said pocket unimpeded FIRST, any other balls (yours or the opponents) that may go down in any pocket AFTER the original one are considered incidental and the game carries on as normal. Cue ball is the exception (as this is a scratch).

- Any scratch, meaning not hitting your own suit first, not hitting anything, sewering the cue-ball at any time (before or after inital shot and/or sink), or making any ball leave the playing surface resuts in a ball-in-hand for the opponent. Meaning they can in fact place the cueball anywhere on the surface and shoot any of their own suit to any pocket.

- The only way to lose by scratching on the 8-ball is if the 8-ball is sunk prematurely, in the incorrect pocket, from an incorrect shot (not the right call), or by incidentally sewering the cueball while shooting the 8-ball.