Vatican endorses Evolution...disses Creationism

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

25% believe it "somewhat likely" Jesus will return in 2007
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/208/story_20828_1.html

45% believe that the Bible is "absolutely accurate and everything in it can be taken literally.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/inerran4.htm

OMG....no pun intended.

OK...I give up...I'm surrounded my morons.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Protestant. They didn't teach it as infallible and literal doctrine or anything. Far from the truth but it obviously comes up when you are discussing it or Sunday School teachers are trying to tell precoscious little brats about Genesis so you are definetely exposed to it. It was printed in some KJV bibles. I remember my sunday school teacher telling me that you could believe that the earth was made in 7 days, that the earth is 6000 years old, or that you could interpret it in other ways. They could be 7 or 6000 of "God's years" or perhaps you can also consider the Hebrew concept of using hyperbole or figures of speech in describing the passage of time. For example, many historians and theologians argue that the expression of the number 40 (as in "40 days and 40 nights" or "40 years in the desert") was just an ancient Hebrew way of saying: "a friggin' long time!!!"

I guess I've just always believe it could be interpreted in a lot of different ways. Maybe that's the problem here....I've just never even thought about a literal translation because it doesn't make sense to me.

Not really relevant to my life anymore anyway. I guess I have been giving more credit to my fellow Americans than they deserve.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I don't think that is a widely accepted definition of creationism.....meaning I think the common folk think a belief in God = a belief in creationism.

However that doesn't explain the people that answer yes to the polls about 10,000 year old earth.

Look at it another way. The Southern Baptist Convention has 16 million members and their theological seminary advocates young earth creationism. And that's just one group.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by photon

However that doesn't explain the people that answer yes to the polls about 10,000 year old earth.

Look at it another way. The Southern Baptist Convention has 16 million members and their theological seminary advocates young earth creationism. And that's just one group.

He gave up already. Don't need to beat his dead horse Photon wins! (or maybe none of us do, due to these poll results - duh duh duh [insert foreboding music])

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

OMG....no pun intended.

OK...I give up...I'm surrounded my morons.

Ahh but that gets right down to it, I honestly don't believe 99% of the people who actually believe in a young earth are morons.. they just do so to avoid cognitive dissonance.

Bible is inerrant, bible says earth is 6000 years old and man was created (not evolved), therefore science must be wrong. EDIT Rather their pastor tells them this is what the Bible says, as has been pointed out others interpret scripture differently.

If most of those folks actually learned something about the subjects they'd quickly discover their position is silly.

But people have busy lives and really does it matter to me much if the earth is 4.5 billion, 6000, or a few days old?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

Ahh but that gets right down to it, I honestly don't believe 99% of the people who actually believe in a young earth are morons.. they just do so to avoid cognitive dissonance.

Bible is inerrant, bible says earth is 6000 years old and man was created (not evolved), therefore science must be wrong. EDIT Rather their pastor tells them this is what the Bible says, as has been pointed out others interpret scripture differently.

If most of those folks actually learned something about the subjects they'd quickly discover their position is silly.

But people have busy lives and really does it matter to me much if the earth is 4.5 billion, 6000, or a few days old?

What is the motivation for teaching that literal translation? I'm sure retention of a congregation would be a quick response but would opening up interpretations to mesh with science hurt or help in that endeavor? I say help....but we've already proven I don't do well in this subject.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

What is the motivation for teaching that literal translation? I'm sure retention of a congregation would be a quick response but would opening up interpretations to mesh with science hurt or help in that endeavor? I say help....but we've already proven I don't do well in this subject.

Once you being questioning certain aspects of religion or telling people they are free to interpret it themselves leads to a slipperly slope where you lose control of your religion or your foundation of stability and absolute truth on which religion is almost inexorable based. Why do you think there are religious schisms (many leading to bloodshed even) in EVERY major world religion over centuries to modern day? There are hundreds of sects of Christianity, same for Islam...even Buddhism! Different interpretations because people decided they wouldn't toe the literal party line anymore and had different ideas about what they believed in or how things should be done.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by photon

Ahh but that gets right down to it, I honestly don't believe 99% of the people who actually believe in a young earth are morons.. they just do so to avoid cognitive dissonance.

Bible is inerrant, bible says earth is 6000 years old and man was created (not evolved), therefore science must be wrong. EDIT Rather their pastor tells them this is what the Bible says, as has been pointed out others interpret scripture differently.

If most of those folks actually learned something about the subjects they'd quickly discover their position is silly.

But people have busy lives and really does it matter to me much if the earth is 4.5 billion, 6000, or a few days old?

I love that. The earth was created last Thursday, thanks

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Once you being questioning certain aspects of religion or telling people they are free to interpret it themselves leads to a slipperly slope where you lose control of your religion or your foundation of stability and absolute truth on which religion is almost inexorable based. Why do you think there are religious schisms (many leading to bloodshed even) in EVERY major world religion? Different interpretations because people decided they wouldn't toe the literal party line anymore and had different ideas about what they believed in or how things should be done.

Yes, but we are talking about the 21st century in the United States. There isn't going to be any religious wars between the Church of God In Christ and the 7 variations of it that are within a square mile of neighborhood I work in (NO JOKE) . People start new churches all the time for a variety of reasons.

I can't see most pastors teaching things they don't themselves believe to be true.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Yes, but we are talking about the 21st century in the United States. There isn't going to be any religious wars between the Church of God In Christ and the 7 variations of it that are within a square mile of neighborhood I work in (NO JOKE) . People start new churches all the time for a variety of reasons.

I can't see most pastors teaching things they don't themselves believe to be true.

A literal belief is also something of comfort to cling to for some who need the reassurance that they have been provided (by providence) with the grace of that certain and absolute truth that is literally stated for them. You can spend less of your time thinking and simply know that what you believe in is enough and that you are safe. It's exactly what Photon said; cognitive dissonance.

It's easier to have faith in something that you can read and believe without question. If you begin to question something or your friend or pastor has a different interpretation, that faith gets either stirred or shaken. This may lead to more cognitive dissonance to deal with it.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

What is the motivation for teaching that literal translation?

That's a great question for Textcritic, I think he's even covered biblical inerrancy and where it comes from in a past religious thread, though I couldn't even think of what to search on (except inerrant/inerrancy maybe).

All the churches I ever went to were churches that taught biblical inerrancy, and featured things like a 6000 year old earth in their statements of faith that you had to sign that you agreed to before being accepted as a member.

The motivation I guess is to have an absolute authority that cannot be questioned or denied.. makes life easier since every question comes down to "what does the Bible say" and then we do that. Very little thinking required.

Of course in practice that doesn't work since the Bible is unclear/ambiguous/silent on so many things, but the churches would still come up with scriptures that if you looked at them through the sides of your eyes so you could find scriptural support for whatever it was they taught.

I think in general it's obvious religions change over time to reflect advances in science and morality, it's just sometimes they take a loooong time to catch up.

[photon]

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=52874

This is one thread where we get into it a bit, Textcritic coins the term bibliolaters people who put the Bible on par with God or even above God.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by photon

Of course in practice that doesn't work since the Bible is unclear/ambiguous/silent on so many things, but the churches would still come up with scriptures that if you looked at them through the sides of your eyes so you could find scriptural support for whatever it was they taught.

That's one thing I could never stand. People can just about bring up any verse to justify any argument. I turned on my TV a few nights ago and Vision TV was playing John Hagee Ministries. He's one of the most prominent, respected pastors and televangelists in the United States.

He was arguing that the Iraq war was just and that God advocates warfare because even Jesus favored soldiers. He brought up the story of Jesus healing the Roman Centurion's daughter and argued that he favored him as a soldier. This is completely false. This story is completely about the centurion's blind faith - not his profession (although it is also political because it is a story that also shows that Christianity is open to gentiles and even the supposed oppressors - the Romans).

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I can't see most pastors teaching things they don't themselves believe to be true.

She wasn't a pastor, but Mother Teresa taught things she didn't believe to be true.

I tend to think that an awful lot of people don't actually believe what they say/pretend to believe when it comes to religion. Even "mainstream" Christianity says some pretty wacky things. They just go along for the ride because that's what they are expected to do and it's easy to just go with the flow.

The odd time I went to church as a kid I thought the whole thing was a put on. The adults didn't actually believe what we were talking about.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=52874

This is one thread where we get into it a bit, Textcritic coins the term bibliolaters people who put the Bible on par with God or even above God.

Interesting.

I wonder if the same can be said of the Koran and radical Muslims? I would think so. I mean, desecrating one is punishable by death I think.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The odd time I went to church as a kid I thought the whole thing was a put on. The adults didn't actually believe what we were talking about.

I just wanted to go home and play football. Was that soooooo much to ask?

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Interesting.

I wonder if the same can be said of the Koran and radical Muslims? I would think so. I mean, desecrating one is punishable by death I think.

Textcritic was speaking more of the text than the actual physical book. However, for much of Islam, the Koran is not just the absolute pure word of god. It's the language of god. Arabic is the language of god.

[photon]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I tend to think that an awful lot of people don't actually believe what they say/pretend to believe when it comes to religion. Even "mainstream" Christianity says some pretty wacky things. They just go along for the ride because that's what they are expected to do and it's easy to just go with the flow.

Interesting you say that, I read an article along those lines recently that I thought was pretty interesting, I'll see if I can find it.

Basically it had the same premise.. most Christians don't actually *believe* what they say they believe, at least not at their core. Otherwise their actions would be different.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle4761159.ece

Here it is..

EDIT: It's from the point of view of an atheist, but the point later in the article is what I mean, not the anti-religious part at the start.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

Interesting you say that, I read an article along those lines recently that I thought was pretty interesting, I'll see if I can find it.

Basically it had the same premise.. most Christians don't actually *believe* what they say they believe, at least not at their core. Otherwise their actions would be different.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle4761159.ece

Here it is..

EDIT: It's from the point of view of an atheist, but the point later in the article is what I mean, not the anti-religious part at the start.

Maybe I should claim this as the reason for my original viewpoint in this thread? Or the justification for my incredulous reaction to the poll numbers.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Maybe I should claim this as the reason for my original viewpoint in this thread? Or the justification for my incredulous reaction to the poll numbers.

As I was re-reading the article that exact thought passed through my mind.. "I've just undermined my whole position, haven't I". Lol...