40th Canadian Federal Election - Welcome to another Conservative Minority (whee!)

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

And there is the crux of the condemnation against the "Green Shift" - that people will generally end up paying more.

We have seen varying levels of Green taxes across Europe, which has made them world leaders in reducing greenhouse emissions - without increased tax burden and without crippling their economy. In fact, in Germany, which has the closest thing to the Liberal "Green Shift" has not only seen a signficant reduction in their emissions, but has also seen their economy grow.

(Emphasis added)

I'm not sure why you think these are mutually exclusive. Isn't growth of gross revenue usually the measure of whether an economy is growing or shrinking? Take the same products and increase prices and the gross revenue will grow up.. and yet people still end up paying more.

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I'm not 100% sold on the "Green Shift" as written. I have backed green taxes in the past as a general concept, but I'm not sure that Dion's "Green Shift" is the right implementation. However, at least they have a plan - an option that has worked in other countries. The Conservative plan mimics that of Chretien and Paul Martin - give great lip service to the issue, but nothing more.

Nothing, hey? I heard on QR77 this morning that the Conservatives plan would probably raise heating costs (I think is what they said) by 7%. The Liberal plan would raise them by 40%. Numbers aside, how is it that costs will go up if they don't have a plan or are doing nothing about it?

[Resolute 14]

Liberal hypocricy at its finest.

http://www.scandalpedia.ca/

[Stranger]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Liberal hypocricy at its finest.

http://www.scandalpedia.ca/

The liberals are lucky they've never had a scandal too deal with.

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by calculoso

(Emphasis added)

I'm not sure why you think these are mutually exclusive. Isn't growth of gross revenue usually the measure of whether an economy is growing or shrinking? Take the same products and increase prices and the gross revenue will grow up.. and yet people still end up paying more.

I assume that Devil's Advocate was talking about real GDP growth so no, higher prices wont cause higher GDP.

More to the point, carbon taxes will not cause a recession. They will lower economic growth by about 1 - 4% from a baseline scenario with no carbon tax. Once you factor in the environmental benefits (provided the world adopts a carbon price which is likely) then it's safe to say you come out ahead with a carbon tax.

Nothing, hey? I heard on QR77 this morning that the Conservatives plan would probably raise heating costs (I think is what they said) by 7%. The Liberal plan would raise them by 40%. Numbers aside, how is it that costs will go up if they don't have a plan or are doing nothing about it?

Did a Conservative tell you this? Because it isn't true.

[old-fart]

Comparisons to countries like Germany really aren't that helpful in talking about the Green Tax Shaft. European countries are considerably smaller than Canada, and are more densely populated.

There is no debate that the Green Shaft will raise the price of everything. It is simple math. Companies will NOT just eat the increase in costs - they will pass those costs on to the consumers. The price of gas WILL go up - the Liberals claim there will be no new tax at the pump, which might be true, but the oil companies WILL pass on the increased costs imposed on them by the Green Tax Shaft. Anything that needs to be transported to the end consumer (which is pretty much everything) WILL go up in price as those companies are forced to pay higher costs for that transportation.

The Liberals who continue to claim this plan is "revenue neutral" with the implication that Joe Average will be no worse off are flat out lying. It is only "revenue neutral" in the sense that the Liberal government would spend all the money they collect on various schemes - just like they spent billions of our dollars on HRDC, the gun registry, paying off their friends via plain brown envelopes, etc.

[Ronald Pagan]

The Liberals who continue to claim this plan is "revenue neutral" with the implication that Joe Average will be no worse off are flat out lying. It is only "revenue neutral" in the sense that the Liberal government would spend all the money they collect on various schemes - just like they spent billions of our dollars on HRDC, the gun registry, paying off their friends via plain brown envelopes, etc.

Well sadly for you ANY real policy to reduce GHG emissions will increase the cost of carbon intensive goods. That's the objective.

And while you might distrust the Liberals they spell out pretty clearly in their Green Shift plan where all the revenues will go. A percentage point cut in the bottom three tax brackets and the two corporate income taxes, increases to the working income tax credit, child tax benefits, credits for rural and elderly Canadians.

So yeah, all the revenues are accounted for. Believe them or not but I don't see any reason to think why they wouldn't do what the plan spells out. That is the most politically expedient course of action.

I'm talking like I'm a big Liberal supporter. I've never voted for them in my life, I just think the policy makes sense.

[transplant99]

Believe them or not but I don't see any reason to think why they wouldn't do what the plan spells out

For real? Christ they have bungled up a majority of their programs for decades...but now they will get it right?

I have some serious reservations about that.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

More to the point, carbon taxes will not cause a recession. They will lower economic growth by about 1 - 4% from a baseline scenario with no carbon tax. Once you factor in the environmental benefits (provided the world adopts a carbon price which is likely) then it's safe to say you come out ahead with a carbon tax.

So... if we bank on the rest of the world doing something then we'll be fine.

Great. Let's just convince China and India to adopt the carbon price as well as lowering their emissions.

In addition, lowering economic growth as we're on the verge of entering a recession is not a great plan. Instead of avoiding the recession, it would automatically make it worse. Sounds like a great plan!

[calculoso]

Great day for the two major political parties:

Liberal Candidate apologizes for Nazi comment:
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/fe...5-e23574a1c5e6

No sooner did the Liberals announce Brent Fullard would be running as a Liberal than the candidate issued a statement apologizing for comparing Prime Minister Stephen Harper to Hitler.

N.S. Tory candidate quits; criminal record emerges
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/n...1-a87f670b7cb3

The search is on for a new Conservative candidate in Halifax after the woman selected to run for the Tories, Rosamond Luke, withdrew from the race only two days after being appointed.

The party confirmed Tuesday that it learned Luke has a criminal record and Prime Minister Stephen Harper's chief spokesman, Kory Teneycke, said the former candidate did not disclose her criminal record in an interview with party officials before she was nominated.

The party usually conducts criminal-background and credit checks on candidates before nominating them, but in this case didn't have the time, he explained.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

Believe them or not but I don't see any reason to think why they wouldn't do what the plan spells out. That is the most politically expedient course of action.

The fact that the Liberals have never done what their plans spelled out might be a pretty good reason not to believe they will suddenly change in this case.

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by transplant99

For real? Christ they have bungled up a majority of their programs for decades...but now they will get it right?

I have some serious reservations about that.

Yep they have bungled up alot of their programs.

Thankfully I'm not talking about programs at all. I'm talking about tax cuts. Even the Liberals can manage a tax cut it's one of the simplest policy instruments available to government.

So I guess I'm rebuking your point. There isn't a whole lot to bungle up. You just have to decide whether their entire election platform is a bald-faced lie. It would be pretty cynical to suggest as such.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Great day for the two major political parties:

Liberal Candidate apologizes for Nazi comment:
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/fe...5-e23574a1c5e6

This is why the Conservatives need to follow their own advice and stay out of the attack business. They just arent as good as the Liberals at it.

As far as the Halifax former candidate goes, one would figured parties would be running background checks or something...

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

Thankfully I'm not talking about programs at all. I'm talking about tax cuts. Even the Liberals can manage a tax cut it's one of the simplest policy instruments available to government.

Like the 1993 promise to cut the GST?

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by old-fart

There is no debate that the Green Shaft will raise the price of everything. It is simple math. Companies will NOT just eat the increase in costs - they will pass those costs on to the consumers. The price of gas WILL go up - the Liberals claim there will be no new tax at the pump, which might be true, but the oil companies WILL pass on the increased costs imposed on them by the Green Tax Shaft. Anything that needs to be transported to the end consumer (which is pretty much everything) WILL go up in price as those companies are forced to pay higher costs for that transportation.

Huh. I could have sworn we were still in a free market economy. In most competitive markets, prices are set at what the market allows, not at a set margin above supplier costs. Any new taxing system forces manufacturers and vendors to make a choice between two options: maintain the current price point and take a hit to their profit margin, or raise prices if they think that the market will allow it. Some will opt for the former, some for the latter. You can argue the merits of forcing businesses to choose between a lower profit margin or a higher price point, and make a valid case against the Green Shift based on that. But to suggest that it's simple math that the retail cost of everything will go up suggests a simple understanding of economics.

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The fact that the Liberals have never done what their plans spelled out might be a pretty good reason not to believe they will suddenly change in this case.

In fairness none of their plans have been this detailed. Look at the Green Shift, they provide revenue forecasts and the expected costs of tax cuts.

In my opinion a lot of people are grasping at straws in a way to discredit the Liberal plan. It's cynical and extremely unconvincing.

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Like the 1993 promise to cut the GST?

Yeah, like 3 days after they were elected David Dodge the Deputy Minister of Finance told them that the Country had never been in worse financial standing (thanks to Conservative mismanagement) and that most of their platform would have to be shelved in order to restore financial sanity to the country.

You can hardly blame the Liberal party for failing to cut the GST under those circumstances.

[Resolute 14]

Sure I can. It is extremely unlikely that the Liberals had no clue what the economic forcasts were going into that campaign. They campaigned on eliminating the GST specifically because they knew it would resonate with voters upset at Mulrooney for introducing it.

As far as their forcasts for the carbon scam go, we are talking about the same people that forecast a database would cost $2 million to implement and somehow spent nearly $3 BILLION on it before the Conservatives shut it down.

This is all electioneering. The numbers are complete bullshiat. And that goes for all parties. Dion is hoping to win votes in Quebec off the back of the Alberta and Saskatchewan economies with an illusion being passed off as an environmental plan. Typical Liberal strategy: Support central Canada at the expense of the west. Unfortunately for him, his plan will also negatively impact Ontario. Otherwise it might have succeeded.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

You can hardly blame the Liberal party for failing to cut the GST under those circumstances.

I agree with you there. Mulroney's last stand was to structure things so that it would be more trouble than it was worth to get rid of the GST once it was in place.. Still, the Liberals shouldn't have based their campaign on that promise if they didn't know for a fact they could do it. Even IF they cancelled the GST, it wouldn't make a difference to anyone. The extra 7.5% would just be added to price of the product since retailers would know that they could charge that much more and people would pay. That's why they token GST cuts that the Conservative have done are really an empty gesture.

There is so much crap from both sides. Every side tries to buy your vote. I knew when I received my carbon tax credit cheque this year, that we would likely be having an election before the end of the year.

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Sure I can. It is extremely unlikely that the Liberals had no clue what the economic forcasts were going into that campaign. They campaigned on eliminating the GST specifically because they knew it would resonate with voters upset at Mulrooney for introducing it.

As far as their forcasts for the carbon scam go, we are talking about the same people that forecast a database would cost $2 million to implement and somehow spent nearly $3 BILLION on it before the Conservatives shut it down.

This is all electioneering. The numbers are complete bullshiat. And that goes for all parties. Dion is hoping to win votes in Quebec off the back of the Alberta and Saskatchewan economies with an illusion being passed off as an environmental plan. Typical Liberal strategy: Support central Canada at the expense of the west. Unfortunately for him, his plan will also negatively impact Ontario. Otherwise it might have succeeded.

Well thanks for your rant. But this is more of the same cynical, ideological bilge that I was talking about earlier.

To address some of your points though:

It is very likely that they had no clue of the country's finances.

The revenue forecasts of the carbon tax are relatively easy to calculate and relatively accurate especially considering the brief 4 year window that they're using.

So I would disagree with you.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

Well thanks for your rant. But this is more of the same cynical, ideological bilge that I was talking about earlier.

To address some of your points though:

It is very likely that they had no clue of the country's finances.

The revenue forecasts of the carbon tax are relatively easy to calculate and relatively accurate especially considering the brief 4 year window that they're using.

So I would disagree with you.

You do know that the opposition parties and especially the finance critics are pretty much up to date at all times in terms of the budget and national financial forecasts right. There's no secrecy act when it comes to governmental finances, all that information is pretty much public domain.

Chretien made a promise that resonated with voters, but he knew that he couldn't keep it, there was no secret at the time that the Canadian economy was in bad shape.