McCain a racist?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by flip

Pathetic. Someone makes a comment half in jest and half true and a bunch of holier than thou posters have to act like it's the end of the world.

You did a horrible job of conveying that you were anything but dead serious. I am not holier than thou and I certainly don't think it's the end of the world because you have a skewed view of American society. I understand it is what you are fed day in and day out in school. I get it.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Actually, you'd be shocked if he wasn't a racist.

Just to be clear.


As for your first line, you welcomed that when you questioned my intelligence.

Ok how bout this. I'll go edit my post and then it won't be written in stone anymore? Then you get off your holier than thou trip and we'll all be happy.

Since when was a single comment written on an internet forum in about 2 seconds the be all end all of my personal beliefs? (you'd almost think there were a bunch of anal pricks ready to deface my public persona at a moments notice...sort of like a politician who has a single comment debated about endlessly where people assume that because he used a possibly racist word that he must be a racist)

[flip]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

You did a horrible job of conveying that you were anything but dead serious. I am not holier than thou and I certainly don't think it's the end of the world because you have a skewed view of American society. I understand it is what you are fed day in and day out in school. I get it.

What skewed view of American society is that?

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by flip

Ok how bout this. I'll go edit my post and then it won't be written in stone anymore? Then you get off your holier than thou trip and we'll all be happy.

Since when was a single comment written on an internet forum in about 2 seconds the be all end all of my personal beliefs? (you'd almost think there were a bunch of anal pricks ready to deface my public persona at a moments notice...sort of like a politician who has a single comment debated about endlessly where people assume that because he used a possibly racist word that he must be a racist)

It's because in those 2 seconds, you expressed an overly simplified world view that doesn't sit well with people and because you so readily meant it and defended it. Yes I get your logic and it makes sense...but I don't agree with you at all.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Flip,

whatever you've posted in this thread doesn't define you. I'm not that shallow and I certainly don't think I am any better than you. I'm not on a kick of any kind.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by flip

What skewed view of American society is that?

That the demographics you described are largely racist. Racism is a two way street, especially in this country.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

It's because in those 2 seconds, you expressed an overly simplified world view that doesn't sit well with people and because you so readily meant it and defended it. Yes I get your logic and it makes sense...but I don't agree with you at all.

Take another look at my defense.

In my first post after I said "I wouldn't be surprised if John Mccain is a racist".

I wouldn't be surprised if the wings win the Cup this year DOES NOT mean "the Wings WILL win the Cup this year".

They are two very different statements. Don't accuse people of being ignorant then be ignorant yourself to prove a point.

[lambeburger]

Hey guys, this thread has gotten out of hand. Please keep the personal attacks to private messages.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Flip,

whatever you've posted in this thread doesn't define you. I'm not that shallow and I certainly don't think I am any better than you. I'm not on a kick of any kind.

Well as you can see I'm rather torqued right now because I really resent the implication that a single comment made with a touch of hyperbole, which I typed in about 2 seconds means that I think that all old rich white republicans are in the KKK.


And as to my skewed view of American society don't tell me that if you had to make a profile and list 20 or so traits that a racist would possess (remember we're keeping the g**k comment in mind here, so we're talking racist towards non-white minorities) that you wouldn't list all of those traits I pointed out?

Possessing them does not make you a racist in any shape or form just that you might be more likely to be a racist.

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

That the demographics you described are largely racist. Racism is a two way street, especially in this country.

By this logic saying that men are statistically better at math and sciences than women is sexist (its true!!). and that saying blacks are more likely to be incarcerated in the US is racist too (true too).

Now I don't have any hard evidence (and I don't feel like looking) but I'd be willing to bet that if you asked a person whose academic expertise is in racism in the US, or a statistician/sociologist who's studied racist trends, they'd point out quite a few traits and a few of them would be the ones I'd listed.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by flip

Take another look at my defense.

In my first post after I said "I wouldn't be surprised if John Mccain is a racist".

I wouldn't be surprised if the wings win the Cup this year DOES NOT mean "the Wings WILL win the Cup this year".

They are two very different statements. Don't accuse people of being ignorant then be ignorant yourself to prove a point.

I find it disturbing how you corroborate examples based on empirical evidence to something that is based on subjective thoughts, personal beliefs, and state of mind. It is most assuredly not the same thing unless there is tangible evidence and actions to prove otherwise. You said in your original post that you would be shocked/surprised if any white southerners from his era weren't racists. In other words you said they all were or might as well be. That's why you have people jumping on you.

Back on topic - John Mccain is one of the most liberal senators in the entire Republican party if you look at what he's done in his career and the things he has made his priorities and the things he says. I was a big Mccain fan back in the day, if only for his hilarious appearances on the Tonight Show and the Daily Show where he and Jon Stewart always got along famously. He's one of the good guys. Whoever wins, America will be much better off.

Given what happened to Mccain (he still cannot raise his arms above his shoulders due to his torture), I have no issues with him calling his captors whatever he likes and associating them with wartime slang or slander toward the opposing enemy...even if in the broader context, it is a racial slur. That he does not pander to political correctness gets him a few more points in my book.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I find it disturbing how you corroborate examples based on empirical evidence to something that is based on subjective thoughts, personal beliefs, and state of mind. It is most assuredly not the same thing unless there is tangible evidence and actions to prove otherwise. You said in your original post that you would be shocked/surprised if any white southerners from his era weren't racists. In other words you said they all were or might as well be. That's why you have people jumping on you.

Back on topic - John Mccain is one of the most liberal senators in the entire Republican party if you look at what he's done in his career and the things he has made his priorities and the things he says. I was a big Mccain fan back in the day, if only for his hilarious appearances on the Tonight Show and the Daily Show where he and Jon Stewart always got along famously. He's one of the good guys.

Um, pretty sure one could find empirical evidence to support the fact that there may be traits that are more common among racists in the US towards minorities. Re read my last post again you're conveniently skipping the last half of my response to DFF. It has nothing to do with personal beliefs or my state of mind.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

You did a horrible job of conveying that you were anything but dead serious. I am not holier than thou and I certainly don't think it's the end of the world because you have a skewed view of American society. I understand it is what you are fed day in and day out in school. I get it.

Pretty sure it is pretty darn hard to convey any subtleties when speaking on the internet.

So you have a magical ability to know that I wasn't using hyperbole and that I was serious? That is some pretty skilled reading you've got there. Did you hear the inflection in my voice too even though I was only typing?

Without hearing my voice you can't judge the seriousness of my comments.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by flip

Well as you can see I'm rather torqued right now because I really resent the implication that a single comment made with a touch of hyperbole, which I typed in about 2 seconds means that I think that all old rich white republicans are in the KKK.


And as to my skewed view of American society don't tell me that if you had to make a profile and list 20 or so traits that a racist would possess (remember we're keeping the g**k comment in mind here, so we're talking racist towards non-white minorities) that you wouldn't list all of those traits I pointed out?

Possessing them does not make you a racist in any shape or form just that you might be more likely to be a racist.



By this logic saying that men are statistically better at math and sciences than women is sexist (its true!!). and that saying blacks are more likely to be incarcerated in the US is racist too (true too).

Now I don't have any hard evidence (and I don't feel like looking) but I'd be willing to bet that if you asked a person whose academic expertise is in racism in the US, or a statistician/sociologist who's studied racist trends, they'd point out quite a few traits and a few of them would be the ones I'd listed.

1. Nobody asked you to profile racists for us.
2. If I was asked to, I'd decline. I don't find it a worthwhile exercise. I like to judge people by personal experience.
3. The bolded paragraph, taken in context with what you quoted from my post, makes no sense to me whatsoever.


In any case, be more careful when discussing touchy subjects like this one. If you mean to use hyperbole (and I honestly still don't see what the benefit would've been) make sure it's clear. I'll take your word for it I guess.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by flip

Pretty sure it is pretty darn hard to convey any subtleties when speaking on the internet.

So you have a magical ability to know that I wasn't using hyperbole and that I was serious? That is some pretty skilled reading you've got there. Did you hear the inflection in my voice too even though I was only typing?

Without hearing my voice you can't judge the seriousness of my comments.

Just a word of friendly advice, it's probably wise to avoid blanket statements like: "I'd be shocked if any [insert broad swathe of people to be offended here] wasn't a [insert derogatory group here]" on an internet forum...hyperbole, sarcasm, or otherwise.








Unless you're fotze.


There are exemptions of course. Sports and bodily functions you can do..."I'd be shocked if any Oiler fans weren't bedwetters" but there are certain things you just don't lump people as (racists, pedophiles, etc.). Not good to cross that line.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by flip

Pretty sure it is pretty darn hard to convey any subtleties when speaking on the internet.

So you have a magical ability to know that I wasn't using hyperbole and that I was serious? That is some pretty skilled reading you've got there. Did you hear the inflection in my voice too even though I was only typing?

Without hearing my voice you can't judge the seriousness of my comments.

Come on, there are emoticons a plenty on the right there. Use them. Again, you could just avoid the dancing when discussing a topic like this and just shoot straight. You have to know people are touchy on the subject and rightfully so.

Finally, judging by the reaction you got in this thread, I would deduce that I was not alone in my interpretation of your comments. Maybe your words were the problem?

[flip]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

1. Nobody asked you to profile racists for us.
2. If I was asked to, I'd decline. I don't find it a worthwhile exercise. I like to judge people by personal experience.
3. The bolded paragraph, taken in context with what you quoted from my post, makes no sense to me whatsoever.


In any case, be more careful when discussing touchy subjects like this one. If you mean to use hyperbole (and I honestly still don't see what the benefit would've been) make sure it's clear. I'll take your word for it I guess.

1. Pretty sure the topic was people discussing the possibility of Mccain being racist. I felt he fit a certain profile and i made it known that it is within the realm of possibility that he is a racist (see thread title: I was answering it)
2. Fair enough. I like to make a few educated guesses from time to time. Makes the discussion more fun...sometimes.
3. "That the demographics you described are largely racist." Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by this comment.

And for the record I was being overly simplistic and only trying to use a little bit of hyperbole.

I have absolutely no problem saying that I think it is entirely possible that John Mccain is a racist because it likely could be true. On the same token it may be completely false and I'd be making an incorrect generalization of the traits he possesses as a human. I'm prepared to take that risk.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Come on, there are emoticons a plenty on the right there. Use them. Again, you could just avoid the dancing when discussing a topic like this and just shoot straight. You have to know people are touchy on the subject and rightfully so.

Finally, judging by the reaction you got in this thread, I would deduce that I was not alone in my interpretation of your comments. Maybe your words were the problem?

Oh absolutely they were. I'm just surprised that I was attacked so ruthlessly instead of being given the chance to properly explain my rather hasty (and perhaps harsh) statement and despite my best efforts to do so.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by flip

3. "That the demographics you described are largely racist." Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by this comment.

.

Maybe. Your reply started with 'by that logic' and I hadn't made any leaps of logic in the post.

I said you view of US society was skewed and then made the above statement to describe how. I believe that you think that there are a lot more racists in the demographics you listed then there are in reality. That's what I was trying to get across.

Bedtime and not a moment too soon!

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by flip

Oh absolutely they were. I'm just surprised that I was attacked so ruthlessly instead of being given the chance to properly explain my rather hasty (and perhaps harsh) statement and despite my best efforts to do so.

It's just that it wasn't only your first statement but your subsequent best efforts amounted to more profiling. You just dug a pretty deep hole trying to explain yourself with more and more examples that were akin to saying:

He's black "check"
He's young "check
He's male "check

" I wouldn't be surprised if he's a criminal. "

That's what ticked me off. I think we're trying to tell you that that logic is not a good way to approach anything.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Maybe. Your reply started with 'by that logic' and I hadn't made any leaps of logic in the post.

I said you view of US society was skewed and then made the above statement to describe how. I believe that you think that there are a lot more racists in the demographics you listed then there are in reality. That's what I was trying to get across.

Bedtime and not a moment too soon!

ahh i see.

It was actually a combination of the numerous traits he possessed that made me make such a drastic statement. Any one of the traits aren't inherently prone to be a likely racist but the combination of all of them does make me at least slightly suspicious. Although if yer givin me the benefit of the doubt I should probably do the same for Mccain (and all other old, rich, white, republican, conservatives who fought in 'Nam).