Beijing Olympics Thread

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by mmanzz

I agree, there seems like there are a lot of people on this board who seem to minimizing and trashing Phelps. The fact is you have to go back to Mark Spitz in 1972 to see anything comparable. He is appears to be in his sport, someone who is at the Gretzky, Pele, Jordan, Tiger Woods level. Simply an extraordinary and exceptional athlete that rarely comes along, a pleasure to watch that goes beyond the sport!

Usain Bolt, although certainly outstanding and heading that way, will have to establish some sort of longevity to get to that level.

Its not trashing Phelps. What he did was amazing but NO ONE EVER has had the gold medal in the 100 and 200 (and had the WR). Those are normally very different racers.

Old balls spitz or whatever his name is had 7 so its not un heard of to rack up all the medals in swimming.

It is unheard of in the modern era (under 10s for 100m) to have a guy hold the gold and WR in both the 100 and 200. If he was from the US it might be close, because he is not Phelps will win the media war.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

Maroon! hahahha. Do they still use those crazy colors as levels?

I want a flutterboard! I can beat Phelps!

No more colors.

I got my white badge and bronze and silver cross and then they go and change things up. Damn me for being the oldest of three children and having to go through swimming hell.

[Kidder]

Originally Posted by Eagle Eye

haha, I wish I had a maroon badge!!

I failed maroon 3 times and finally had to give up. If only I had persevered... Canada could have 8 more golds this Olympics, and U.S. 8 less.

What kind of athlete eats like that? NFL linebacker? Whoever said Phelps is a freak of nature is bang on.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by Kidder

I failed maroon 3 times and finally had to give up. If only I had persevered... Canada could have 8 more golds this Olympics, and U.S. 8 less.

What kind of athlete eats like that? NFL linebacker? Whoever said Phelps is a freak of nature is bang on.

Well I'm no nutritionist but if you are burning 12000 calories today, I would assume you would have to eat 12000 calories to make up for that.

My expert opinion is that he should fore go his breakfast plan, and just eat 5 big breakfasts from McDonalds. That way not only would he have 8 world records but he will have a complete set of the Beijing Olympics Collectors Glasses.

[Lurch]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Only four athletes have ever won gold in the 100 and 200 sprints, let alone the roster of events you're suggesting. But winning two golds in swimming isn't only easier, it's downright commonplace. 20 times in Olympic history, swimmers have won multiple golds at a single olympics. Since 1988, the average has been more than three multi-gold-medalist swimmers per games, and just under one 5-gold-medalist per games. And yet the swimming advocates argue that these are all unique disciplines. Yet here's a crazy fact: of all the gold medals won in swimming at these Olympics, only three were won by athletes who did not medal in at least one other sport (and one of those three is a record-holder in another discipline). Yeah, unique disciplines, right.

It's also no coincidence that the number of swimming events has expanded every couple Olympics, and the number of multiple-medalists keeps increasing. Would Spitz have won eight gold and eight world records if he had the benefit of a 50m freestyle? Hard to say, given that the 100m was his closest race; we'll never know, though.

Phelps' record is fairly meaningless when compared against any Olympics prior to 1968, at which time there were only 10 swimming races. If he was swimming 50 years earlier, he would not have had the advantage of the 400 medley, the 4*100 relay, the 200 freestyle, the 200 butterfly, the 100 butterfly, the 200 individual medley, or the 4*100 medley relay. His lone medal would have been the 4*200 freestyle relay. Phelps is one of the top two swimmers of the last 40 years. More than that we can't say about him yet; give it another 40 and see how it stands up. I would expect that it's at the very least a tie for the best, but I'd also predict that swimming continues to produce one 5-gold-medalist almost every games, and about once every 20 years, someone gets 7 or 8.

Compare all this to how difficult it is to be a multi-gold medalist in track. In 100 years of competition, only two athletes have ever won 4 golds at a single Olympics, despite the number of events being relatively unchanged. Only eight athletes have ever won both the 100 and 200, and only one has won the 200 and 400.

To me the best Olympic performance is Jesse Owens, but maybe I'm just anti-american!

I largely agree, but it is a little misleading to suggest he would have been quite that poor. For instance, Phelps would surely have won the 200m breast stroke as the butterfly stroke would have qualified (it was separated b/c it was the faster stroke but met the rule of the day for breast stroke). Phelps is also a world class backstroker, but does not enter typically. He would also likely have a great shot in the 100m free - he set something like the 3rd fastest 100m split in the relay and I doubt he trains it all that much.

On the track, the double is also much more common than let on by simply looking at the sprints. The 1500m and 5000m double is relatively common, as is the 5k, 10k double.

Nonetheless, it's pretty clear to me that gymnastics and swimming are set up for multiple medallists in a way that makes direct comparison to most other sports misleading.

[mmanzz]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Its not trashing Phelps. What he did was amazing but NO ONE EVER has had the gold medal in the 100 and 200 (and had the WR). Those are normally very different racers.

Old balls spitz or whatever his name is had 7 so its not un heard of to rack up all the medals in swimming.

It is unheard of in the modern era (under 10s for 100m) to have a guy hold the gold and WR in both the 100 and 200. If he was from the US it might be close, because he is not Phelps will win the media war.

Actually, your incorrect, 8 men have won both the 100 and 200 at the same Olympics, its quite common. There have also been many who have had held both records simultaneously. Although its is quite rare to break both records and win both but it has happened before. No question, what Usain did was incredible. he probably changed the paradigm for the typical sprinter at a slim 6'5". I think you are going to see bigger guys running the sprints now.

None of that diminishes what Phelps has done. He is also a very big guy who has completed an extraordinary feat that has never been done before. There was chatter back a few pages about new swimming events and so on. The fact is that butterfly is not really a new event, it was called the breaststroke up till the 1956 Olympics. By 1952 the event known as the breaststroke were using the butterfly technique as it fit into the rules definition at the time. You could claim that Phelps is the best swimmer of all time as he is clearly the best in the fly and the front crawl, and he could probably swim a world record in the backstroke if we would not have to practice the old breaststroke for the IM.

The word is that Phelps is sticking around for the next Olympics and will drop the IM because its so hard to train for. He is not finished and already has 14 gold medals over two Olympics.

Can you say that Usain Bolt is the best runner of all time? maybe, but probably not yet. Jesse Owens won 100, the 200 and the long jump(as did Carl Lewis). He broke the records in the long jump and 100 and the 4x100 relay.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by mmanzz

Actually, your incorrect, 8 men have won both the 100 and 200 at the same Olympics, its quite common. There have also been many who have had held both records simultaneously..

holding the 100/200 double is becoming increasingly rare though, it hasn't been done I don't think since Lewis in 1984. I'm not sure when was the last time someone held both the 100 and 200 WR though, but I think its been a looong time. the 200 record hasn't changed much, Johnson held it forever, and before him an Italian guy had it for about 20 years I think

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by mmanzz

Can you say that Usain Bolt is the best runner of all time? maybe, but probably not yet. Jesse Owens won 100, the 200 and the long jump(as did Carl Lewis). He broke the records in the long jump and 100 and the 4x100 relay.

Sure why not? To be the world's greatest sprinter you don't have to win the long jump.

The biggest shock is that Bolt only started to train and run the 100 metres this year. Every other top athlete prob has had years and years of training. I don't think anyone else in olympic history can say that. He broke the world record at 75 metres and coasted in.

In swimming not only did they have the new suits, but also they had a modded pool. One that gave an extra lane on each side plus they designed it so the water overflowed over the sides, therefore less of the back wash coming back into lanes.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by mmanzz

There was chatter back a few pages about new swimming events and so on. The fact is that butterfly is not really a new event, it was called the breaststroke up till the 1956 Olympics. By 1952 the event known as the breaststroke were using the butterfly technique as it fit into the rules definition at the time.

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You've got one event: the breaststroke. Many of the swimmers adapt the breaststroke into the butterfly, which is a faster stroke, and technically fits the rules of breaststroke at the time. So why not just leave it at that? No, instead they create two seperate events: one for this new stroke, and one for the old breast stroke which nobody was swimming because it was so much slower. Why not just let the old stroke die, since a new, faster stroke evolved?

[Ruttiger]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

In swimming not only did they have the new suits, but also they had a modded pool. One that gave an extra lane on each side plus they designed it so the water overflowed over the sides, therefore less of the back wash coming back into lanes.

I think the technology is a wash (no pun intended Word is the mondo track installed at the stadium is among the fastest in the world, if not the fastest. I think I also recall reading that he had separately designed shoes for each foot, specifically to help the spike pattern in the sole, sizing, and running the curve in the 200.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Lurch

I largely agree, but it is a little misleading to suggest he would have been quite that poor. For instance, Phelps would surely have won the 200m breast stroke as the butterfly stroke would have qualified (it was separated b/c it was the faster stroke but met the rule of the day for breast stroke). Phelps is also a world class backstroker, but does not enter typically. He would also likely have a great shot in the 100m free - he set something like the 3rd fastest 100m split in the relay and I doubt he trains it all that much.

On the track, the double is also much more common than let on by simply looking at the sprints. The 1500m and 5000m double is relatively common, as is the 5k, 10k double.

Nonetheless, it's pretty clear to me that gymnastics and swimming are set up for multiple medallists in a way that makes direct comparison to most other sports misleading.

Fair enough, I wasn't meaning to imply that Phelps would win only one medal (although I can see it read that way), I was moreso pointing out how we can't compare his success against swimmers of that era who were much more limited in their choice of events.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

Sure why not? To be the world's greatest sprinter you don't have to win the long jump.

I don't understand that one either. It's like saying Phelps would have to win the 3M spring board in order to be the greatest swimmer ever.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by transplant99

(RE: Phelps winning all his medals in just swimming)
I understand this sentiment...but I sure dont agree with it.

Different disciplines and distances...all of them. Doing the freestyle is so far different from doing the butterfly its hardly the same sport other than being done in water.

Im not sure why people think the pool is overloaded to help such a swimmer. Cant ANY swimmer from ANY nation do the same thing? Would we be saying the same thing if it was a Canadian breaking records left, right, and center?

I'm hardly an expert in swimming, but this stuff about being anti-USA isn't the reason. I hung out with a bunch of Americans yesterday and the topic came up, and like some of those events like gymnastics, they give out alot of medals. Becky something won a gold or something in both winter and summer a couple years ago, I find that alot more impressive. Obviously Phelps is elite in swimming or whatever, and the multiple golds and WRs is pretty cool, but I find those competitors who are in many different events more impressive.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by Ruttiger

I think the technology is a wash (no pun intended Word is the mondo track installed at the stadium is among the fastest in the world, if not the fastest. I think I also recall reading that he had separately designed shoes for each foot, specifically to help the spike pattern in the sole, sizing, and running the curve in the 200.

Is it really though? There has only been 4 world records and 2 of them are by Bolt. He is amazing! People aren't even running their personal bests here. Sure it may be a fast track but other factors, pollution, humidity is not making it a very fast track, making Bolt's performance mind blowing.

The other 2 world records, 3000 steeplechase. hehe and the hot pole vaulter from Russia. And she didn't need the Mondo track to beat the world record the previous 15 times.

In swimming though, didn't like 80-85% of the previous world records fall? It was the norm.

Also in swimming you are in a controlled environment. Water temp, a/c, lighting.

In track you cannot control the temperature and most importantly you cannot control the wind. Sure it can work to your benefit, and that is when the majority of the world records are broken, but for Bolt it worked against him.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I'm hardly an expert in swimming, but this stuff about being anti-USA isn't the reason. I hung out with a bunch of Americans yesterday and the topic came up, and like some of those events like gymnastics, they give out alot of medals. Becky something won a gold or something in both winter and summer a couple years ago, I find that alot more impressive. Obviously Phelps is elite in swimming or whatever, and the multiple golds and WRs is pretty cool, but I find those competitors who are in many different events more impressive.

Maybe you're thinking of Clara Hughes? She won some Olympic medals in cycling, then converted to speedskating. The only Becky I can think of is Becky Scott, who's won at the winter olympics (cross country) but not summer. She's on the Lillydale commercials now sometimes.

I'm also impressed by a swimmer like Debbie Meyer who won the 200, 400 and 800 freestyle; to have the speed to win at the 200 and the endurance to win at the 800 is remarkable.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Ruttiger

I think the technology is a wash (no pun intended Word is the mondo track installed at the stadium is among the fastest in the world, if not the fastest. I think I also recall reading that he had separately designed shoes for each foot, specifically to help the spike pattern in the sole, sizing, and running the curve in the 200.

I didn't see 3 other guys breaking the previous world records in the 100m and the 200m like was happening in nearly every swimming event.

The technology advantage is ridiculously greater is swimming - it's just ignorant to argue otherwise.

[GirlySports]

Taekwondo is the strangest sport I've every seen.
Girls wearing full body armour kicking barefoot and screaming.

Can you imagine if boxers screamed after every punch?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Taekwondo is the strangest sport I've every seen.
Girls wearing full body armour kicking barefoot and screaming.

Can you imagine if boxers screamed after every punch?

The version of Taekwondo I did used more focussed breathing and very specific syllables (kyup) but they're (mostly, I think) screaming because exhalation is part of the technique to deliver stronger blows, which are still important in sparring because weak blows don't score.

Heymans second in diving at the moment.

CBC (female commentator):

"She's not strong enough, I don't think women should be doing this dive."

Bet there'll be a lot of flack taken for that, I'm sure, whether it's true or not.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by SebC

The version of Taekwondo I did used more focussed breathing and very specific syllables (kyup) but they're (mostly, I think) screaming because exhalation is part of the technique to deliver stronger blows, which are still important in sparring because weak blows don't score.

Heymans second in diving at the moment.

CBC (female commentator):

"She's not strong enough, I don't think women should be doing this dive."

Bet there'll be a lot of flack taken for that, I'm sure, whether it's true or not.

Heh, I noticed that too. To be fair, in any of these sports, both men and women continue to push the envelope of what can be done, and at some point there are people doing routines that they shouldn't be doing. But given how badly she missed, she probably shouldn't be doing that dive.

[GirlySports]

Beach volleyball in a monsoon!
This might be the only way May and Walsh could lose.