Crop Circles

[Dion]

Many other artists gradually began making circles of greater and greater complexity. Most notably, a group called 'The Circlemakers' have made various intricate patterns, including a recent portrait of Richard and Judy of UK TV fame.

Is there a crop circle that couldn't have been made overnight by a team of dedicated humans? A member of The Circlemakers, John Lundberg, can only suggest one example - a formation that appeared in Milk Hill in 2001. It had 409 circles and was nearly 300 metres across.

"If this formation was man-made allowing for time to get into and out of the field under cover of darkness the construction time left should be around four hours. Given that there are over 400 circles, some of which span approximately 20m in diameter, that would mean that one of those circles would need to be created every 30 seconds. And that's not even allowing any time for the surveying, purely flattening, this formation pushes the envelope and that's a MASSIVE understatement."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/l...es/human.shtml

[Dion]

During certain weather conditions, the constant stream of air over hilly areas would produce small, electrically charged whirlwinds. These could build up into columns and then break down again, creating a circle of flattened crops.

This theory may even explain the formation of complex patterns in certain crops. The electrical energy created when the whirlwind discharges could be sufficient to create complicated patterns in the landscape. This discharge could also be accompanied by light and sound, explaining why witnesses report seeing flashing lights and hearing humming noises.

Meaden claims examinations of soil and crop samples suggest that a short-lived force flattens the crops. But as yet, the existence of these 'plasma-vortices' has not been proven.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/l...s/vortex.shtml

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by photon

I'd like to see real evidence of this, nothing I've seen is actual evidence, just claims.



What evidence is there of crop circles over the last 400 years? I've never heard that before so I'm curious.

Fair enough, I've never seen any actual evidence on the first one either. I'm not sure to what extent these anomalies have been documented by impartial sources.

In regards to the the crop circle histories, I'm going to retract that statement. I'd seen discussion about early printed materials that talk about something called a 'mowing devil' mowing circles in farmer's fields in the 1600s. But in looking into it, there's actually no mention that the mowing produces circles, but rather that the whole field is mowed. The picture shows a devil mowing a circle, but that's probably just artistic license. So I've gotta think that this is the crop circle enthusiasts grasping at straws (pun!). There's other anecdotal evidence of early 20th century circles, but nothing that would stand up to any sort of scientific rigour.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Dion

Many other artists gradually began making circles of greater and greater complexity. Most notably, a group called 'The Circlemakers' have made various intricate patterns, including a recent portrait of Richard and Judy of UK TV fame.

Is there a crop circle that couldn't have been made overnight by a team of dedicated humans? A member of The Circlemakers, John Lundberg, can only suggest one example - a formation that appeared in Milk Hill in 2001. It had 409 circles and was nearly 300 metres across.

"If this formation was man-made allowing for time to get into and out of the field under cover of darkness the construction time left should be around four hours. Given that there are over 400 circles, some of which span approximately 20m in diameter, that would mean that one of those circles would need to be created every 30 seconds. And that's not even allowing any time for the surveying, purely flattening, this formation pushes the envelope and that's a MASSIVE understatement."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/l...es/human.shtml

Again, simply an argument from ignorance.. not knowing how it was done doesn't equate to it being impossible through normal means.

Is it known for sure that this showed up over one night? Maybe it was done over multiple nights? Start with the small ones which are far from each other and it'd be hard to notice from the ground, then do the big ones the final night. Or have a bigger team.

Mabye they have some kind of tool that radically reduces the time to create them? If a magician can have a tool or gadget that makes a trick work that people can't think of until they see it, it's possible for the makers to have one as well.

It could be all kinds of things, but until there's evidence in one direction there's no reason to think in that direction.

[4X4]

For crying out loud, people. Everyone knows that crop circles are created by Reese Peanut Butter Cups. Except Rory Tate. He always seemed to be looking the other way.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by MJK

Ok, I consider myself somewhat of a crop circle buff. There are a ton of theories out there as to how they are made and whatnot. I think they are amazing and they have always made me think.

I am a firm believer that something 'special' is the cause of them but I don't think anyone knows for sure how the heck they are made. Anyone who thinks they are ALL made by people during the night are crazy. Some of the intricate ones would be impossible to create by a human IMO.

There are many crop circles that have been discovered that use very precise math.

What do you guys think? All man made or something else? What else could it be? Little green aliens or some strange force of nature we don't know about.

I have a hunch but I will wait and see what you guys think first.

Show me a crop circle that doesn't have those tracks intersecting it and MAYBE I would take a look....otherwise it is pretty obvious that the creators walked into the field instead of beaming in

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by Flames89

Case in point...EVERY one has tracks intersecting the image...show me a [non-photoshopped] crop circle in a virgin field and I will be impressed

[jammies]

If *I* had an extrasolar warp-drive and knew where some technologically backward aliens were, I'd probably be playing practical jokes like crop circles on them, sure. I'd be peeking in windows and then running away, stealing their pseudo-cows and putting them in the neighbour's barn, and divebombing drunk drivers out on lonely country roads - maybe even leaving naked lady magazines in their outhouses for Dad to discover after Junior has made a visit!

So I guess the question is: are there aliens, and if so, do they have a juvenile sense of humor like mine? The smart money says no - nobody gives a guy like me a spaceship, unless they want it back in somewhat less pristine condition than it went out in.

[sclitheroe]

The math involved in some of them looks fractal to me, which would mean that it would be pretty easy to be precise, because its an iterative approach.

What I would be very interested in seeing, though, are pictures of crop circles where the perpetrators messed up, or abandoned their effort part way through. First, that would give you an idea of how they progress the work, and also, it would be interesting to see what kind of rookie mistakes get made. I mean these people, aliens, or whatever, they gotta start somewhere right? Surely they goof on a couple along the way...

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

Case in point...EVERY one has tracks intersecting the image...show me a [non-photoshopped] crop circle in a virgin field and I will be impressed

I say find me a field that hasn't been driven on by farm equipment and still has crops, then i'll be even more impressed.

[rubecube]

I'm sure there's a newfie joke to be made in here somewhere...

I think the concept of crop circles being created by aliens flies in the face of reason.

[MJK]

I was not trying to prove anything and I did not have a goal. I just wanted to see what people thought, pretty simple.

Some people feel the need to flex their muscles because they think they know it all I guess. All I am saying is that is it ok to be open minded to the fact that something cool might actually be happening here. That is all. Just wanted the thoughts of others, not to see an abundant of over used words like "burden of proof".

Did I want a stupid human vs non human debate? No, because it is pointless.

I don't think they are ALL made by humans. Are some, HELL YES! But not all IMO. That is just my opinion, I ain't gonna shove it down your throats.

[HelloHockeyFans]

Still waiting on your take... you mentioned that "anyone who thinks they are ALL made by people during the night are crazy"... which actually seems to be most of the people in this thread...

You mentioned you had "a hunch" and are a firm believer that something "special" is the answer... what is it? Just curious.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by photon

Again, simply an argument from ignorance.. not knowing how it was done doesn't equate to it being impossible through normal means.

Is it known for sure that this showed up over one night? Maybe it was done over multiple nights? Start with the small ones which are far from each other and it'd be hard to notice from the ground, then do the big ones the final night. Or have a bigger team.

Mabye they have some kind of tool that radically reduces the time to create them? If a magician can have a tool or gadget that makes a trick work that people can't think of until they see it, it's possible for the makers to have one as well.

It could be all kinds of things, but until there's evidence in one direction there's no reason to think in that direction.

Ignorance to you maybe but not to me. I would think that person quoted who makes crop circles would have a bit more knowladge of this than you or myself. I'm also pretty sure he knows of the tools people use to make them plus the time involved.

I have an open mind to these things and am willing to accept the possibilty the one he refered to was not man made and maybe others. I also don't need the same burden of proof that you are spouting. All that i've read on the subject suggests to me that not all are man made. The evidence, while not concrete proof, is very compelling and cannot be dismissed in my mind.

[photon]

Originally Posted by MJK

I just wanted to see what people thought, pretty simple.

Some people feel the need to flex their muscles because they think they know it all I guess. All I am saying is that is it ok to be open minded to the fact that something cool might actually be happening here. That is all. Just wanted the thoughts of others, not to see an abundant of over used words like "burden of proof".

So you welcome what some people think but not others? That seems pretty closed minded.

You want to be open minded when it comes to cool things, why not open minded when it comes to proper rational thinking?

Your "some people" comment was clearly (at least partially) directed at me. Grow up and speak to someone directly when you're going to insult them, or don't do it at all.

Of course something cool is happening here, look at all the cool pictures. Yes something beyond ordinary might also be happening, but why do you feel it's ok to presume that those out of the ordinary reasons are the proper explanation when there's no evidence for them?

That is just my opinion, I ain't gonna shove it down your throats.

You have your opinion, but you haven't said why you hold that opinion yet.

[Dion]

According to Dr Colin Andrews, who has studied crop circles for 17 years, about 20% are caused by eddies in the earth's magnetic field - the rest are man-made. He thinks a mysterious shift in the electro-magnetic field creates a current that flattens the crops in its path.

"Yes - it's a nice rounded theory," says Mr Bishop. Like Dr Andrews, he says all but the simplest circles are hoaxes.

The theory could explain why in some circles, microphones and recording equipment hit interference, he says. Some years ago, a BBC crew had difficulty recording in a circle.

"If the circles are formed by electro-magnetic eddies, there may be a residual charge of energy," Mr Bishop says.

But he does not think the new theory is the final word: "It doesn't explain why often the nodes of the plants have swollen up to 200 times the original size."

He thinks the currents may work in tandem with other environmental factors, possibly conducted via water in the air, such as mist, or in underground water tables.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/871607.stm

[photon]

Originally Posted by Dion

Ignorance to you maybe but not to me. I would think that person quoted who makes crop circles would have a bit more knowladge of this than you or myself. I'm also pretty sure he knows of the tools people use to make them plus the time involved.

That's a lot of "pretty sure" and "would think". One person doesn't represent everyone who's made a crop circle and doesn't have all the knowledge. Different magicians compete fiercely to come up with acts to outdo the others, not every magician knows all the tricks, the same thing would apply here.

I have an open mind to these things and am willing to accept the possibilty the one he refered to was not man made and maybe others. I also don't need the same burden of proof that you are spouting. All that i've read on the subject suggests to me that not all are man made. The evidence, while not concrete proof, is very compelling and cannot be dismissed in my mind.

What "burden of proof am I spouting"? Burden of proof simply means that the person making the claim has the burden of substantiating that claim, it doesn't say anything about the amount of evidence required.

Concrete proof is better reserved for math, evidence is what's important. Think of the kind of evidence that would be admissible in court. What evidence is there that's so compelling about non-human origins of crop circles? Real evidence I mean, not hearsay and "some guy said he measured".

[photon]

Originally Posted by Dion

According to Dr Colin Andrews, who has studied crop circles for 17 years, about 20% are caused by eddies in the earth's magnetic field - the rest are man-made. He thinks a mysterious shift in the electro-magnetic field creates a current that flattens the crops in its path.

"Yes - it's a nice rounded theory," says Mr Bishop. Like Dr Andrews, he says all but the simplest circles are hoaxes.

The theory could explain why in some circles, microphones and recording equipment hit interference, he says. Some years ago, a BBC crew had difficulty recording in a circle.

"If the circles are formed by electro-magnetic eddies, there may be a residual charge of energy," Mr Bishop says.

But he does not think the new theory is the final word: "It doesn't explain why often the nodes of the plants have swollen up to 200 times the original size."

He thinks the currents may work in tandem with other environmental factors, possibly conducted via water in the air, such as mist, or in underground water tables.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/871607.stm

Interesting but that's all just wild speculation, there's nothing resembling real evidence there.

Eddies in the earth's magnetic field should be easily measured, why aren't they working on experiments to measure those?

Then he speculates about "energy lines", can he even define what he means by that, let alone measure them?

Nothing like real evidence there...

[Dion]

Originally Posted by photon

That's a lot of "pretty sure" and "would think". One person doesn't represent everyone who's made a crop circle and doesn't have all the knowledge. Different magicians compete fiercely to come up with acts to outdo the others, not every magician knows all the tricks, the same thing would apply here.

Of course one person doesn't represent everyone. I would think if this guy is making circles he has probably shared and swapped ideas with others who do it also. What compelled me was the time frame involved to make these things and that the one he talked about couldn't have been made in one night. Or the fact he never suggested that it might have been amde in 2 nights - something i thought he would have stated.

What "burden of proof am I spouting"? Burden of proof simply means that the person making the claim has the burden of substantiating that claim, it doesn't say anything about the amount of evidence required.

I stand corrected then - poor choice of words on my part.. I do recognise that anyone who claims they are not man made has to provide evidence to support his claim.

Concrete proof is better reserved for math, evidence is what's important. Think of the kind of evidence that would be admissible in court. What evidence is there that's so compelling about non-human origins of crop circles? Real evidence I mean, not hearsay and "some guy said he measured".

The real evidence might be hard to find then.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by photon

Interesting but that's all just wild speculation, there's nothing resembling real evidence there.

Eddies in the earth's magnetic field should be easily measured, why aren't they working on experiments to measure those?

Then he speculates about "energy lines", can he even define what he means by that, let alone measure them?

Nothing like real evidence there...

Just to clarify. I never claimed it was evidence. I merely posted it so people can read it for what it is - theory. And to show that some attempt is being made to try and understand why they are being made.