Any other CPers Wiccan?

[Howie_16]

Originally Posted by jammies

To be a hypocrite, you would have to think Wicca is not only a mistaken belief, but a ridiculous belief worthy of mockery. Is that what you think?

No, I do not think that Wicca is mistaken or ridiculous belief worthy of mockery.

Originally Posted by jammies

An analogy only works if the original argument and the analogous argument map on a one to one level - do you understand that "Oiler Fan" is on a different categorical level than "hockey fan", and that "Wiccan" is NOT on a different categorical level than "Christian" or "Muslim" or "Buddhist" or any other example of "believers in some kind of God"?

Clearly you don't, as you remake the same argument above, and make the exact same error. If the analogy doesn't map, it is not useful in evaluating the original argument. You are comparing unlike things as if they were like, and that is a fatal flaw in your logic regardless of how "clear" it is to you.

You do realize that the original Oiler fan statement was followed by the "rolling eyes" smiley, right? Does that not indicate to you that I may have been somewhat less than serious?

Still, you must realize that "Being something", followed by a subcategory which provides distinction shouldn't be that confusing.

Originally Posted by jammies

I repeat my expansion of the original argument, as apparently you skimmed over it the first time: If you believe in one thing, mocking others who believe in something different, but no less plausible, is hypocritical as you are essentially mocking belief itself - claiming that it is a positive characteristic in yourself but a negative characteristic in others. There are arguments to be made against that statement, but your analogy isn't one of them.

No, I don't necessarily agree. If both Person A and Person B have different belief systems, Person A does not necessarily mock belief itself if he teases Person B but merely a belief in something different.

Originally Posted by jammies

I'm pretty sure he was looking to see if there were any other Wiccans on CP, just like he originally posted. Some people were being funny but not in an offensive way, but others were clearly trying to get a reaction. I don't care for that kind of small-mindedness, as there is a distinct difference between questioning someone's beliefs in a thread where the intention is to debate those beliefs, and doing so in a thread where there was no such invitation. If the thread had been "What do you think about Wicca?" or even "Wiccan practioner cures cancer, scientists mystified", that would be different.

I agree with you here. However, just because someone tries to get a reaction from you doesn't mean you have to give them one.

Originally Posted by jammies

Of course it has happened, but not nearly as much as the more "sensitive" Christian members think. Disagreement does not necessarily imply a "put down", unless of course any challenge at all to one's world-view is seen as dangerous antagonism.

I am aware that in my lifetime I have probably received much more abuse and mockery for my support of the Seattle Seahawks than my choosing to attend a particular church.

When I see a car driving down the street with a Darwin fish growing legs, I tend to see the humour in it, and I would be tempted to mock those Christians who claim to be offended, even though I would classify myself as a Christian.

Originally Posted by jammies

With that kind of logical leaping you should look into making the 2012 Olympic team when they finally let sophistry into the event list. I don't even know where to start with this, other than to say that I think you mean "biases AGAINST organized religion", and that the word "competent" doesn't mean what you think it means.

And should they add nitpicking to the 2012 Olympic Games, maybe we can be roommates at the Athletes Village!

[Howie_16]

Originally Posted by Save Us Sutter

What? Really, what? He said "And at least the Wiccans aren't all fixated on telling other people what their morals should be." and that is what you respond with? Who said anything about Mormons?

Well, I thought that most people would see that, fair or not, the Mormon faith has a reputation of being fixated on telling other people what their morals should be, what with the door knocking and devoting two years of your life to missionary work in poor, underdeveloped areas of the world such as Western Canada.

Originally Posted by Save Us Sutter

This also does nothing to argue against his real point that there is just as much evidence of the Wiccan belief structure as that of any other religion. And if you go to church on Sunday, and mock someone else for what they believe, you ARE a hypocrite.

Since I never mocked Wicca in this thread, I think it is fair to say that I am not a hypocrite.

I mocked someone for being sensitive, and I guess in someway that would make me a hypocrite if I was the type of person who was easily offended.

Originally Posted by Save Us Sutter

Hockey fan does not = being religious. It's not even close to the same thing at all. Being religious is a core belief, being a hockey fan is entertainment.

Even if we grant you that it's ok analogy it still fails. If you say that you believe being a hockey fan is an important part of your existence, then you WOULD be a hypocrite for ragging on Oil fans because it's also an important part of their existence as well and which team you cheer for is irrelevant.

Yes, how insensitive and hypocritical of us Flames fans to tease Oiler and Canuck fans when their teams don't make the playoffs.

Please make note of the "rolling eyes" smiley.

Originally Posted by Save Us Sutter

He was asking if anyone shared his beliefs? Is that not a valid question? It is so shocking to expect that there might be others out there? And yeah it was pretty brave, cosidering the general public sentiment towards Wiccans, and I do respect him for it.

How is it brave to state your religious background on an internet forum where no one uses their real name?

Originally Posted by Save Us Sutter

You used them to trivialize a belief that is different from your own. Pretty rude.

No, I used them to indicate the specific title of the religion, much like the title of a book or movie. I do see that it may have come across as trivializing Wicca, and this was not my intention. This is why I stated that I used them incorrectly.

If I was an overly sensitive person, I could say that you were rude to say that I was rude...

Again, please note the "rolling eyes" smiley. No, I am not trivializing the smiley. Gee, I hope I didn't offend the smiley or anyone who worships the smiley in all his glorious forms...

[fatso]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Clearly it's not a religion many know much about and some react in the way many people do when they don't understand something - with humor.

What did you expect?

Use it as an opportunity to explain what's its really about.

No need to delete the thread.

I'm surprised you would say this JiriHrdina. I'm not saying close the thread or anything, but why should he have to teach any body about his beliefs?

The op was simply asking whether or not anyone on here adhered to Wiccan beliefs... who knows, maybe if there was enough people he was planning on starting another thread about something related? I don't think he should have any burden to educate anybody in this specific context. The thread was not started by saying someone/everyone should be Wiccan or that society ought to follow Wiccan values in a deliberation of the death penalty.

Seems a little unjust imo...

[Save Us Sutter]

Originally Posted by Howie_16

Well, I thought that most people would see that, fair or not, the Mormon faith has a reputation of being fixated on telling other people what their morals should be, what with the door knocking and devoting two years of your life to missionary work in poor, underdeveloped areas of the world such as Western Canada.

Yeah, I get that. I guess I just didn't see jammie's statement as being about Mormons. The Jerry Springer rant you went on seemed... well... weird and out of place?

Originally Posted by Howie

Since I never mocked Wicca in this thread, I think it is fair to say that I am not a hypocrite.

I mocked someone for being sensitive, and I guess in someway that would make me a hypocrite if I was the type of person who was easily offended.

Fair enough. Most people ARE pretty sensitive when it comes to people mocking their beliefs, in my experiences anyway.

Originally Posted by Howie

Yes, how insensitive and hypocritical of us Flames fans to tease Oiler and Canuck fans when their teams don't make the playoffs.

Please make note of the "rolling eyes" smiley.

Not what I was saying. I think we're just going to have to drop this one because you're clearly not getting what I (or jammies) were trying to explain. The team you cheer for is simply not comparable to the religion you choose.

Originally Posted by Howie

How is it brave to state your religious background on an internet forum where no one uses their real name?

Because even if people don't know who you are, when you read their replies you know they're talking about you and your beliefs. He was opening himself up to a group of strangers. Just because names aren't involved doesn't make that any less of a courageous leap.

Originally Posted by Howie

No, I used them to indicate the specific title of the religion, much like the title of a book or movie. I do see that it may have come across as trivializing Wicca, and this was not my intention. This is why I stated that I used them incorrectly.

\

Cool. Misunderstood. I took them to be "scare quotes" which are often intended to provoke a negative association for the word enclosed within them.

Anyway, like I said, I was procrastinating last night and that led to me picking fights on the internet... haha. No hard feelings!

[Howie_16]

Originally Posted by Save Us Sutter

Anyway, like I said, I was procrastinating last night and that led to me picking fights on the internet... haha. No hard feelings!

Agreed, no hard feelings.

[BuzzardsWife]

I just read a book recently on Wicca and it was really interesting and enlightening. Changed my perception of what being a Wiccan is. Just as in Satanism there are 2 sides to this religion. There are bad witches and bad Satanist. Satanism is actually based on just believing in your own path, not the devil or god. The uneducated on this matter will automatically disagree, but if you read about it like I do you will find the facts.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by BuzzardsWife

I just read a book recently on Wicca and it was really interesting and enlightening. Changed my perception of what being a Wiccan is. Just as in Satanism there are 2 sides to this religion. There are bad witches and bad Satanist. Satanism is actually based on just believing in your own path, not the devil or god. The uneducated on this matter will automatically disagree, but if you read about it like I do you will find the facts.

I have read LaVey's works too and it is definitely not what you think Satanism would be. That given, they tend to teach a walk over anyone or hurt anyone you can to get what you want in life mentality along with a strong belief in revenge at all costs. Tthe sad thing is that Pagan's and Wiccan's are often tied in with Satanism even though they are very different religions. Thanks to all who have been understanding with their posts too!

[Russic]

Originally Posted by fatso

I'm surprised you would say this JiriHrdina. I'm not saying close the thread or anything, but why should he have to teach any body about his beliefs?

The op was simply asking whether or not anyone on here adhered to Wiccan beliefs... who knows, maybe if there was enough people he was planning on starting another thread about something related? I don't think he should have any burden to educate anybody in this specific context. The thread was not started by saying someone/everyone should be Wiccan or that society ought to follow Wiccan values in a deliberation of the death penalty.

Seems a little unjust imo...

I'm going to have to go ahead and agree with this. If somebody starts a non-confrontational thread about their religious beliefs and those religious beliefs are then ridiculed the OP should have the right to have the thread closed. If I made a thread about following Judaism and suddenly people started dropping Jew jokes I imagine the thread could be locked immediately at my request.

My issue isn't that anybody around here was overly insulting, but rather that somebody felt their personal beliefs were being attacked, made a request to have the thread locked and the request was denied. I agree with Fatso, the OP shouldn't have to back-up or explain anything. All my opinion of course.

[octothorp]

My problem with Wicca is the shifting theology. It seems that some Wiccans are monotheistic (a single mother goddess), some are duotheistic (mother goddess plus companion male god), and some are polytheistic. For me, these sorts of theological considerations need to be at the center of the discussion about the legitimacy for any religion. In the case of Wiccan, its origins seem to come fairly directly from one man's reworkings of victorian mysticism, (particularly the duotheist strain), and then has been turned into a feminist theology (dianistic wiccanism, which is basically monotheistic), and a seemingly more modern polytheism that is more influenced by paganism. Without the solid theological base, Wicca looks to me to be more about the ritual than about the theology.

I'm curious to know, Dissentowner (and I'm asking these as serious questions, not to mock you or your beliefs), what, in your mind makes a Wiccan? Is it anyone who identifies themselves as such? Would you consider someone who believes in different pagan gods (or no gods) to still be part of the same Wiccan religion that you belong to? Do you believe that someone needs to have a legitimate claim the the Gardnerian lineage of Wicca (being initiated into a valid coven and such)? What about someone who believes in the same gods as you, but doesn't practice any of the rituals?

These questions aren't so different from ones I would ask Christians, where there can be so many different interpretations and variations in theology. But in Christianity, everything is organized into churches with a central authority dictating belief, practice and ritual. Unless you're a Gardnerian, I don't think you get that in Wicca.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Russic

I'm going to have to go ahead and agree with this. If somebody starts a non-confrontational thread about their religious beliefs and those religious beliefs are then ridiculed the OP should have the right to have the thread closed. If I made a thread about following Judaism and suddenly people started dropping Jew jokes I imagine the thread could be locked immediately at my request.

My issue isn't that anybody around here was overly insulting, but rather that somebody felt their personal beliefs were being attacked, made a request to have the thread locked and the request was denied. I agree with Fatso, the OP shouldn't have to back-up or explain anything. All my opinion of course.

Nope. Not the way it works. People start threads and discussions happen. I don't see anything overtly offensive in this thread. Nor has a single post from the thread been reported.

Again, I would suggest people take the opportunity to educate others on their religion instead of letting a few posts close an entire discussion.

In short OP's don't decide when threads get closed.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by fatso

I'm surprised you would say this JiriHrdina. I'm not saying close the thread or anything, but why should he have to teach any body about his beliefs?

The op was simply asking whether or not anyone on here adhered to Wiccan beliefs... who knows, maybe if there was enough people he was planning on starting another thread about something related? I don't think he should have any burden to educate anybody in this specific context. The thread was not started by saying someone/everyone should be Wiccan or that society ought to follow Wiccan values in a deliberation of the death penalty.

Seems a little unjust imo...

It's a discussion forum. People are discussing the topic at hand. When you start a thread you don't control where it goes...the people taking part in the discussion do.

Frankly if he's just looking to connect with fellow Wiccans there are a lot of sites out there I'm sure that do that.

The off-topic board is intended for discussions of all sorts of things. This thread falls in that class.

He can choose to teach others about his religion or not. I don't care. But I see no reason to close the thread. He can choose to keep participating or not.

[4X4]

Words that rhyme with wiccan:

flickin
frickin
kickin
chicken
niccin (for the smokers)

(this joke brought to you by story, glory, allegory, montessory)



Now, in all seriousness, I've always wanted to read a succinct book about Wicca. What I've read on the internet is vague and scattered. Can any Wiccans recommend a good book that outlines the basics of Wicca that isn't an attempt to convert or to steer away?

[PowerPlayoffs06]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Now, in all seriousness, I've always wanted to read a succinct book about Wicca. What I've read on the internet is vague and scattered. Can any Wiccans recommend a good book that outlines the basics of Wicca that isn't an attempt to convert or to steer away?

The Truth About Witchcraft Today by Scott Cunningham.

It does a fine job of explaining many aspects of Wicca without trying to convert, because that's pretty much a main tenant of Wicca. There are a couple tongue-in-cheek jabs at Christianity in it, but the author doesn't try to debunk the religion or anything.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by PowerPlayoffs06

The Truth About Witchcraft Today by Scott Cunningham.

It does a fine job of explaining many aspects of Wicca without trying to convert, because that's pretty much a main tenant of Wicca. There are a couple tongue-in-cheek jabs at Christianity in it, but the author doesn't try to debunk the religion or anything.

Any of Scott's books are an excellent read.

[FlamesAddiction]

I personally share some of the same spiritual views of Wiccans, but not enough to actually become one.... although, I might fake it just to pick-up Wiccan chicks. I kid.

So how did you become Wiccan? Did someone convert you? Were your parents Wiccan? And if you weren't born into it, has it made your life better?

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I personally share some of the same spiritual views of Wiccans, but not enough to actually become one.... although, I might fake it just to pick-up Wiccan chicks. I kid.

So how did you become Wiccan? Did someone convert you? Were your parents Wiccan? And if you weren't born into it, has it made your life better?

I became Wiccan through searching when I was a young teenager for where I felt I belonged and what belief system mirrored how I saw the world. My family is actually not religious at all except for my grandparents who were Christian however they were very accepting of my beliefs. Wicca has made my life better because I feel more in touch with nature and the real things around me, I appreciate them more. I believe all life is equal and sacred, I actually will cup a bug and let it go if it is in my house,lol. Being Wiccan gives you many options in your beliefs in gods or higher powers, not all of us believe in the same gods yet we all share the same belief in the power of nature and the earth. Here is a more informative link about Wicca. Thanks for everyone's interest and acceptance and no, I cannot change Kevin Lowe into a toad!
http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/wicc...can_Basics.htm

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

...and no, I cannot change Kevin Lowe into a toad!

Ya, somebody already beat you to the punch on that one.

[fatso]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

It's a discussion forum. People are discussing the topic at hand. When you start a thread you don't control where it goes...the people taking part in the discussion do.

Frankly if he's just looking to connect with fellow Wiccans there are a lot of sites out there I'm sure that do that.

The off-topic board is intended for discussions of all sorts of things. This thread falls in that class.

He can choose to teach others about his religion or not. I don't care. But I see no reason to close the thread. He can choose to keep participating or not.

Well, thanks for responding. Like I said I don't think there is anything egregious in the thread to merit closing it, but I do find your response somewhat convenient.

I've seen multiple threads closed and posts 'mod-edited' because the content has strayed too far from the subject title. To say that the discussion goes where it will may be true. But it's always at least somewhat regulated. Hate speech, unfounded speculation on Flames' players personal lives, and poster insults are all examples that I can think of that require the invisible hand of CP moderation. So maybe it's a matter of degree... maybe what it is, is that nothing here is all *that* bad... and fair enough. I agree.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by BuzzardsWife

I just read a book recently on Wicca and it was really interesting and enlightening. Changed my perception of what being a Wiccan is. Just as in Satanism there are 2 sides to this religion. There are bad witches and bad Satanist. Satanism is actually based on just believing in your own path, not the devil or god. The uneducated on this matter will automatically disagree, but if you read about it like I do you will find the facts.

I'm far more well read on Satanism than Wicca, but I can say fairly certainly that there can easily be good Wiccans, it would be hard to find a good Satanist. If someone puts their own enjoyment of life above all else, including the feelings and needs of others you have a Satanist. And I don't see how that can make for a good person.

[BuzzardsWife]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I'm far more well read on Satanism than Wicca, but I can say fairly certainly that there can easily be good Wiccans, it would be hard to find a good Satanist. If someone puts their own enjoyment of life above all else, including the feelings and needs of others you have a Satanist. And I don't see how that can make for a good person.

I think you can be a good person and follow every religion, because we all take what we want from each religion and make our own path. I don't think just because you're a satanist it makes you a bad person.