Any other CPers Wiccan?

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Howie_16

The nature of my post is that I am not hypocritical because I mock "Wicca".

I am I a hypocritical hockey fan if I mock Oiler fans?

Comparing the Oilers to a belief and religion is apples to oranges.

edit: No I didn't misunderstand.

[Howie_16]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Comparing the Oilers to a belief and religion is apples to oranges.

No worries though, I misunderstood. Not trying to jump on ya.

My love of the Flames is like religion to me...

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Wow, kinda disappointed by the mockery here. This was obviously a huge mistake on my part assuming everyone would be respectful of others beliefs. Mods can you please delete this thread, thanks.

Clearly it's not a religion many know much about and some react in the way many people do when they don't understand something - with humor.

What did you expect?

Use it as an opportunity to explain what's its really about.

No need to delete the thread.

[Table 5]

Agreed. Educate our ignorant asses.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I dabble, but nothing serious.

You dabble?

What is it, like knitting?

[missdpuck]

No one exects the Spanish Inquisition!!! LOL OMG that cracked me up..I say that several times a day and noone knows what I'm talking about. Back to the comfy chair aaaaaahhhhh

[Flames_Gimp]

only church i attend is the Saddledome.

[dissentowner]

Ok, for those of you who are unfamiliar with Wicca I will post the Wikipedia link as there is a lot to cover and I find the writeup is well done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

Sorry for acting so sensitive but I don't think anyone should have their beliefs ridiculed.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Howie_16

The nature of my post is that I am not hypocritical because I mock "Wicca".

I am I a hypocritical hockey fan if I mock Oiler fans?

Your example is not even close to being a good analogy - 'hockey fan' and 'Oiler fan' are not two instances of things of the same type, you are trying to link a category and member of a category. Of course the correct comparison "Am I a hypocritical Flames fan if I mock Oiler fans?" doesn't support your point, which is why you didn't use it...

However, comparing a believer of one type with a believer of another doesn't have the same issue of category confusion - IF you believe in one thing, mocking others who believe in something different, but no less plausible, is hypocritical as you are essentially mocking belief itself - claiming that it is a positive characteristic in yourself but a negative characteristic in others.

As far as the OP being overly sensitive, I will remember that next time someone brings up their Christian beliefs and then starts moaning about how misunderstood and reviled the poor Christians are, and how other religions get off easy in comparison. I don't think it's too much to expect that if someone wants to talk to other Wiccans here, the amount of mockery to actual discussion might at least stay under a 1:1 ratio.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by jammies

As far as the OP being overly sensitive, I will remember that next time someone brings up their Christian beliefs and then starts moaning about how misunderstood and reviled the poor Christians are, and how other religions get off easy in comparison. I don't think it's too much to expect that if someone wants to talk to other Wiccans here, the amount of mockery to actual discussion might at least stay under a 1:1 ratio.

OK you remember that and we can both compare what is said about Christianity to the things said on this thread.

[Save Us Sutter]

Yeah, Christians get their fare share of mud thrown at them as well. But it's usually (always) by the atheists. They are being attacked for believing, period, not their specific beliefs. There's a huge difference IMO.

It's a logical argument to argue against FAITH.

It's hypocritical to argue about what someone has that faith in.

Also, why is Wicca in " "? Because it's not your "God"?

EDIT: Thanks Jammies, for pointing out the bad analogy. I read that and actually said "what?" out loud. I'm not usually the type to talk to computers.

[Howie_16]

Originally Posted by jammies

Your example is not even close to being a good analogy - 'hockey fan' and 'Oiler fan' are not two instances of things of the same type, you are trying to link a category and member of a category. Of course the correct comparison "Am I a hypocritical Flames fan if I mock Oiler fans?" doesn't support your point, which is why you didn't use it...

However, comparing a believer of one type with a believer of another doesn't have the same issue of category confusion - IF you believe in one thing, mocking others who believe in something different, but no less plausible, is hypocritical as you are essentially mocking belief itself - claiming that it is a positive characteristic in yourself but a negative characteristic in others.

As far as the OP being overly sensitive, I will remember that next time someone brings up their Christian beliefs and then starts moaning about how misunderstood and reviled the poor Christians are, and how other religions get off easy in comparison. I don't think it's too much to expect that if someone wants to talk to other Wiccans here, the amount of mockery to actual discussion might at least stay under a 1:1 ratio.

Sorry, I think my analogy is perfect. Just because others don't get it, I still know that being a Flames fan/Protestant Christian makes me right and therefore all you Oil fans/Catholics/Canuckleheads/Hindus/Mormons/Wicca Witches/Miscellaneouses are 100% wrong!

[Ford Prefect]

With respect to the OP, I am not Wiccan but I have a read a little about it, just as I have about many religions and faiths. While it's not for me, I find Wicca to be quite interesting and the Wiccans I've known are good people. I think the world might be a better place had Wicca evolved into a more dominant role in the world. The three major religions that exist today have not done a very good job IMO, particularly in the areas of respect and tolerance for others and husbandry of the planet. I think Wicca would do a better job in these two areas than the three dominant relgions ... Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

Personally, I have not found any of the off the shelf faiths to have all the answers. I suppose if anything I'm a Cathar, but with influences from many other sources as well, including Buddhism, Wicca and many pagan religions, including those of Native Americans.

As for atheism, I find it has pretty much become a faith as well, with as much blind faith and intolerance as the religions it assails. Atheism has elevated science to an exalted status and made science its religion. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it fails to adequately address spiritual and metaphysical issues.

I think one of the major failings of most religions is that they fail to embrace and incorporate science. Atheism on the other hand fails to embrace and incorporate spiritualism, morality and metaphysics.

The bottom line for me is that if a belief system works for someone, be it atheism, Christianity, Judaism or Wicca, then great. It's probably the right belief system for that individual. My only real complaint is when an adherent to a particular belief system attacks and belittles adherents of a different belief system. I'm guilty of belittling the Vatican myself, but I view the Vatican as more of a political entity than a religious one. I think all faiths, atheism included, have something to offer to the discussion and the solution. So in that spirit I think this is an excellent thread topic because it provides an opportunity for enlightenment on a belief system that many don't know enough about.

[Howie_16]

Alright, let's go, smart guy/girl...

Originally Posted by jammies

I am the last person to defend any kind of religion, but anyone who mocks Wicca and yet believes in some kind of God is a hypocrite. There is just as much evidence for Wiccan beliefs as there is for Christian, Muslim or other mainstream faiths. And at least the Wiccans aren't all fixated on telling other people what their morals should be.

Why do you get to be so offended because someone knocked on your door and invited you to join their church?! Boo effin' hoo. Mormons interupting your Jerry Springer hour doesn't give you free reign to have a hissy fit. Just say, "No thank you." and move on with the rest of your life. I am not a hypocrite because I go to church on Sunday.

Originally Posted by jammies

Your example is not even close to being a good analogy - 'hockey fan' and 'Oiler fan' are not two instances of things of the same type, you are trying to link a category and member of a category. Of course the correct comparison "Am I a hypocritical Flames fan if I mock Oiler fans?" doesn't support your point, which is why you didn't use it...

In my analogy, "hockey fan" = "being religious" and "supporting a particular team while I support another" = "having a certian set of beliefs that differs from my own" doesn't appear to me to be that vague or obtuse. An Oiler fan would probably agree that they like hockey, and someone who practices Wicca would probably admit to being somewhat religious.

I think my comparison was perfectly clear to the majority of CP'ers.

Originally Posted by jammies

However, comparing a believer of one type with a believer of another doesn't have the same issue of category confusion - IF you believe in one thing, mocking others who believe in something different, but no less plausible, is hypocritical as you are essentially mocking belief itself - claiming that it is a positive characteristic in yourself but a negative characteristic in others.

I wasn't mocking the religion, I was mocking the sensitivity of dissentowner. Was dissentowner expecting people to write about how brave he/she was to come out and state his/her Wiccan beliefs? Or ask how they can become Wiccan?

Originally Posted by jammies

As far as the OP being overly sensitive, I will remember that next time someone brings up their Christian beliefs and then starts moaning about how misunderstood and reviled the poor Christians are, and how other religions get off easy in comparison. I don't think it's too much to expect that if someone wants to talk to other Wiccans here, the amount of mockery to actual discussion might at least stay under a 1:1 ratio.

Good point, nobody puts down Christians, especially here on CP.

I think it is perfectly clear that your biases towards organized religion are preventing you from making competent responses in this thread. Please prove me wrong, or refrain from posting further.

[Howie_16]

Originally Posted by Save Us Sutter

Also, why is Wicca in " "? Because it's not your "God"?

You are correct. I used quotation marks incorrectly.

[Save Us Sutter]

So from that Wikapedia link

- Most Wiccans believe in a God(s)
- Believe in "...the freedom to act, along with the necessity of taking responsibility for what follows from one's actions and minimising harm to oneself and others"
- Practice many different rituals
- Use "tools" in these rituals
- Have special occasions they celebrate throughout the year
- Have representative symbols

Gee, sure sounds different from all the others? What is it that people see as negative? That they believe in magic? Spells? Is Communion not a "spell". Is God not magic?

Ford, I'm with you man. Agree pretty much 100% with that post.

Logically, in my brain, I am an atheist though I tend to shy away from calling myself that. I'll say non-believer if someone asks me. I guess I just find that word has negative connotations for, among others, the reasons you pointed out.

That said, I do feel a spiritual side exists and has a place in our lives. I tend to to sorta visualize it as a byproduct of consciousness, sorta a shared human experience thing. It sounds kinda fluffy but I see our perception of "the spiritual" as actively experiencing a very deep, subconscious empathy for our entire species. It's kinda hard to put it into words without sounding like a hippy I guess.

There are truths and insights in all the different religions. I mean, there's a reason people follow them. On a personal scale they help billions of people with their lives. On a political/macro scale... well... I have my opinions. Seems once we humans gather in large numbers, we're nothing but trouble, not matter what side we're representing.

As to the OP, I must say I didn't know a while lot about Wiccans before reading that wiki link and some other sites I looked up. So you've helped educate at least one person. Don't let the other comments get you down. You're obviously proud enough of your beliefs to publicly post about it. That makes you a hundred times the human than someone who would mock you for it.

[Save Us Sutter]

Originally Posted by Howie_16

Alright, let's go, smart guy/girl...

I'm sure jammies is more than capable of defending himself (and I encourage him to do so) but I'm stuck home on a Friday night packing to move across the country on Monday and I'm procrastinating, so I'm going to bite as well.

Originally Posted by Howie

Why do you get to be so offended because someone knocked on your door and invited you to join their church?! Boo effin' hoo. Mormons interupting your Jerry Springer hour doesn't give you free reign to have a hissy fit. Just say, "No thank you." and move on with the rest of your life. I am not a hypocrite because I go to church on Sunday.

What? Really, what? He said "And at least the Wiccans aren't all fixated on telling other people what their morals should be." and that is what you respond with? Who said anything about Mormons?

This also does nothing to argue against his real point that there is just as much evidence of the Wiccan belief structure as that of any other religion. And if you go to church on Sunday, and mock someone else for what they believe, you ARE a hypocrite.

Originally Posted by Howie

In my analogy, "hockey fan" = "being religious" and "supporting a particular team while I support another" = "having a certian set of beliefs that differs from my own" doesn't appear to me to be that vague or obtuse. An Oiler fan would probably agree that they like hockey, and someone who practices Wicca would probably admit to being somewhat religious.

Hockey fan does not = being religious. It's not even close to the same thing at all. Being religious is a core belief, being a hockey fan is entertainment.

Even if we grant you that it's ok analogy it still fails. If you say that you believe being a hockey fan is an important part of your existence, then you WOULD be a hypocrite for ragging on Oil fans because it's also an important part of their existence as well and which team you cheer for is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by howie

I think my comparison was perfectly clear to the majority of CP'ers.

Not this one.

Originally Posted by Howie

I wasn't mocking the religion, I was mocking the sensitivity of dissentowner. Was dissentowner expecting people to write about how brave he/she was to come out and state his/her Wiccan beliefs? Or ask how they can become Wiccan?

He was asking if anyone shared his beliefs? Is that not a valid question? It is so shocking to expect that there might be others out there? And yeah it was pretty brave, cosidering the general public sentiment towards Wiccans, and I do respect him for it.

Originally Posted by Howie

Good point, nobody puts down Christians, especially here on CP.

Already addressed this in my previous post.

Originally Posted by Howie

I think it is perfectly clear that your biases towards organized religion are preventing you from making competent responses in this thread. Please prove me wrong, or refrain from posting further.

Unnecessary.

Originally Posted by Howie_16

You are correct. I used quotation marks incorrectly.

You used them to trivialize a belief that is different from your own. Pretty rude.

[Thor]

One of my friends is wiccan, has been for I think almost 10 years now. Anyhow he's a cool guy, easy going and never really talks much about it.

When he does I mock him, but I mock people who believe in god(s).. He knows its nothing personal and we get a good laugh out of our minor debates.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Howie_16

Why do you get to be so offended because someone knocked on your door and invited you to join their church?! Boo effin' hoo. Mormons interupting your Jerry Springer hour doesn't give you free reign to have a hissy fit. Just say, "No thank you." and move on with the rest of your life. I am not a hypocrite because I go to church on Sunday.

Since nobody made that argument, I'm not sure why you are denying it. Other than, hypothetically, a tendency to assume persecution where none exists.

To be a hypocrite, you would have to think Wicca is not only a mistaken belief, but a ridiculous belief worthy of mockery. Is that what you think?

Originally Posted by Howie_16

In my analogy, "hockey fan" = "being religious" and "supporting a particular team while I support another" = "having a certian set of beliefs that differs from my own" doesn't appear to me to be that vague or obtuse. An Oiler fan would probably agree that they like hockey, and someone who practices Wicca would probably admit to being somewhat religious.

I think my comparison was perfectly clear to the majority of CP'ers.

An analogy only works if the original argument and the analogous argument map on a one to one level - do you understand that "Oiler Fan" is on a different categorical level than "hockey fan", and that "Wiccan" is NOT on a different categorical level than "Christian" or "Muslim" or "Buddhist" or any other example of "believers in some kind of God"?

Clearly you don't, as you remake the same argument above, and make the exact same error. If the analogy doesn't map, it is not useful in evaluating the original argument. You are comparing unlike things as if they were like, and that is a fatal flaw in your logic regardless of how "clear" it is to you.

I repeat my expansion of the original argument, as apparently you skimmed over it the first time: If you believe in one thing, mocking others who believe in something different, but no less plausible, is hypocritical as you are essentially mocking belief itself - claiming that it is a positive characteristic in yourself but a negative characteristic in others. There are arguments to be made against that statement, but your analogy isn't one of them.

Originally Posted by Howie_16

I wasn't mocking the religion, I was mocking the sensitivity of dissentowner. Was dissentowner expecting people to write about how brave he/she was to come out and state his/her Wiccan beliefs? Or ask how they can become Wiccan?

I'm pretty sure he was looking to see if there were any other Wiccans on CP, just like he originally posted. Some people were being funny but not in an offensive way, but others were clearly trying to get a reaction. I don't care for that kind of small-mindedness, as there is a distinct difference between questioning someone's beliefs in a thread where the intention is to debate those beliefs, and doing so in a thread where there was no such invitation. If the thread had been "What do you think about Wicca?" or even "Wiccan practioner cures cancer, scientists mystified", that would be different.

Originally Posted by Howie_16

Good point, nobody puts down Christians, especially here on CP.

Of course it has happened, but not nearly as much as the more "sensitive" Christian members think. Disagreement does not necessarily imply a "put down", unless of course any challenge at all to one's world-view is seen as dangerous antagonism.

Originally Posted by Howie_16

I think it is perfectly clear that your biases towards organized religion are preventing you from making competent responses in this thread. Please prove me wrong, or refrain from posting further.

With that kind of logical leaping you should look into making the 2012 Olympic team when they finally let sophistry into the event list. I don't even know where to start with this, other than to say that I think you mean "biases AGAINST organized religion", and that the word "competent" doesn't mean what you think it means.

[smoothessence]

darryl sutter could win this debate for sure...