Tesla Roadster now being delivered.

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Okay, that's super, but that doesn't change how much hydrogen a station can store. Granted this isn't anything that will ultimately decide the fate of either technology, but the ammount of hydrogen (and the energy it carries) you can store in a given volume will never change, batteries are constantly improving how much power they can pack into a smaller and smaller volume.

Correct, battery technology and storage capacity etc, will improve, and quite possibly could outpace the finite power of hydrogen. As the technology improves, their capacity, power, charge times, and size will all improve. But I could see battery packs staying a finite size, with power and capacity improving. Like hard drives. Hard drive storage capacity keeps getting better and better, but the size stays the same.

That being said, for the "battery station" to be feasible, there would have to be a standard battery size that all vehicles adhere to. If there is any deviation, you could run into a problem of a service station not having the battery size that your vehicle takes. This probably isn't very likely. As I am sure vehicle and battery makers would come to agreement of standard battery pack sizes.

There could also be a situation of "battery pack tiers" as there are octane tiers at current gas stations. So you could use the latest and greatest battery pack in your vehicle, to improve performance. But then service stations would then have to store enough batteries to cover all the tiers.

Where as with hydrogen, because you are doing the conversion on the fly, you wont run into the same type of problems. There would be no "tiered" hydrogen, as it is all the same. If you want the latest and greatest fuel cell, you would get it from the dealer, instead of a service station.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

Anyone else concerned about the load charging cars will put on an already strained distribution system? We already have brownouts at some times, with warnings to limit use of appliances. It's even worse in the southern states. How can the systems take this extra load of charging large battery systems unless we expand production? Seems to be another factor limiting the adoption.

Charging would largely occur at night, which is the time of the least power consumption.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by arsenal

Correct, battery technology and storage capacity etc, will improve, and quite possibly could outpace the finite power of hydrogen. As the technology improves, their capacity, power, charge times, and size will all improve. But I could see battery packs staying a finite size, with power and capacity improving. Like hard drives. Hard drive storage capacity keeps getting better and better, but the size stays the same.

That being said, for the "battery station" to be feasible, there would have to be a standard battery size that all vehicles adhere to. If there is any deviation, you could run into a problem of a service station not having the battery size that your vehicle takes. This probably isn't very likely. As I am sure vehicle and battery makers would come to agreement of standard battery pack sizes.

There could also be a situation of "battery pack tiers" as there are octane tiers at current gas stations. So you could use the latest and greatest battery pack in your vehicle, to improve performance. But then service stations would then have to store enough batteries to cover all the tiers.

Where as with hydrogen, because you are doing the conversion on the fly, you wont run into the same type of problems. There would be no "tiered" hydrogen, as it is all the same. If you want the latest and greatest fuel cell, you would get it from the dealer, instead of a service station.

Okay,
I'll admit that in this arbitrary world or random conditions of choosing Tiered batteries that they hydrogen infrastructure would in one way be simpler than batteries.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

Charging would largely occur at night, which is the time of the least power consumption.

Or when commuters get home. Which is when the peak consumption occurs iirc. I doubt people will wait until late evening before they plug in their car.

[FlameFanStuckinEDM]

Does anybody know if the idea of a self-charging car has been brought up in the industry?

What I am thinking of, is a car with a wind turbine somehow incorporated into the design. The car would have the battery power to move the car, then the battery could be charged by the wind turbine as the air passes through it. I know it probably would not be the best looking vehicle, but, I am sure that over time the more aesthetically pleasing designs would be produced.

With this design, you would be able to drive as far as you wanted to and maybe only plug the car in for a short time when you reach your destination. I am not quite sure yet how the issue of traffic jams would be solved though.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by FlameFanStuckinEDM

Does anybody know if the idea of a self-charging car has been brought up in the industry?

What I am thinking of, is a car with a wind turbine somehow incorporated into the design. The car would have the battery power to move the car, then the battery could be charged by the wind turbine as the air passes through it. I know it probably would not be the best looking vehicle, but, I am sure that over time the more aesthetically pleasing designs would be produced.

With this design, you would be able to drive as far as you wanted to and maybe only plug the car in for a short time when you reach your destination. I am not quite sure yet how the issue of traffic jams would be solved though.

I think a little thing called the laws of thermodynamics might cause a few problems with this idea.

Maybe if we could get the government to repeal them!

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by FlameFanStuckinEDM

Does anybody know if the idea of a self-charging car has been brought up in the industry?

The tesla has something similar already. As the vehicle brakes, it converts some of the energy and stores it back in the battery. It isn't very much though.

I guess you could put intakes or a hood scoop on the vehicle to convert wind into electricity while you are driving. I don't think you could generate enough electricity to keep the batteries charged though. You probably could extend the range of the vehicle by about 50 miles though.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by arsenal

The tesla has something similar already. As the vehicle brakes, it converts some of the energy and stores it back in the battery. It isn't very much though.

I guess you could put intakes or a hood scoop on the vehicle to convert wind into electricity while you are driving. I don't think you could generate enough electricity to keep the batteries charged though. You probably could extend the range of the vehicle by about 50 miles though.

NO YOU COULDN'T.
If you only used the fans durring braking you might get some sort of power back but I doubt it'd be worth the effort, but if they were going the entire time the drag caused by them would be more than the power they produced.
You can't break the laws of thermodynamics! That's why they're called laws.

[arsenal]

A Bonus: Regenerative Braking Regenerative braking — which recovers and stores the energy usually lost when you slow down — extends your charge even further, delivering higher miles-per-charge on in-town driving. Think of it like engine braking with a bonus. Whenever you slow down, you send a charge back into the battery. It's a much-needed silver lining to red lights, traffic jams, and other slowdowns.

So why couldn't you do essentially the same thing with small turbines powered by the air forced into them via hood scoop or side intakes into electricity?

This isn't breaking any laws of thermodynamics. It's taking currently working technology and applying it in a different fashion.
And where did I say that the energy produced from this would be equal to or greater than energy used to produce it?

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by arsenal

So why couldn't you do essentially the same thing with small turbines powered by the air forced into them via hood scoop or side intakes into electricity?

This isn't breaking any laws of thermodynamics. It's taking currently working technology and applying it in a different fashion.
And where did I say that the energy produced from this would be equal to or greater than energy used to produce it?

The difference here is when you are capturing that extra energy. If you do it via engine braking, you are doing it when you WANT to slow down. If you do it via wind, you are increasing drag and slowing during a time you don't want to. It's more efficient to go the other route.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by arsenal

So why couldn't you do essentially the same thing with small turbines powered by the air forced into them via hood scoop or side intakes into electricity?

This isn't breaking any laws of thermodynamics. It's taking currently working technology and applying it in a different fashion.
And where did I say that the energy produced from this would be equal to or greater than energy used to produce it?

Re read what I said.
Yes it could add something to the batter if it was used ONLY WHILE STOPPING. If you tried to have wind turbines producing power while driving, it would be a losing proposition, you would drain the batteries faster and it would reduce the range. If you think running it the whole time will increase your range, that would require producing more energy than it's using.


To answer your question about where you said it would produce more energy than it uses, I refer you to what you said below:

I guess you could put intakes or a hood scoop on the vehicle to convert wind into electricity while you are driving. I don't think you could generate enough electricity to keep the batteries charged though. You probably could extend the range of the vehicle by about 50 miles though

Using it while driving + extending the range = getting more energy than it is using = a trip to thermodynamics jail

As for using a wind turbine while breaking?
There is a fininte ammount of energy to recover, and I'm thinking that a mechanical linkage to the road via the tires (which can bring a generator up to speed almost insantly) is a much more effiecient method of recovering this power than through a wind turbine which would take time to come up to speed and considering the breaking time, I doubt it would be as efficeint as the current system wich is linked directly to the wheels.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by arsenal

You probably could extend the range of the vehicle by about 50 miles though.

This is probably my favorite post in this thread.

Someone has obviously run all the calculations on this


Regenerative braking with generators or alternators are a lot more effiecient than using fans to slow you down.

In fact, fans are about 378.423 times less efficient.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

NO YOU COULDN'T.
If you only used the fans durring braking you might get some sort of power back but I doubt it'd be worth the effort, but if they were going the entire time the drag caused by them would be less than the power they produced.
You can't break the laws of thermodynamics! That's why they're called laws.

Drag caused would be greater than the power they produced, right?

I agree with your point though, there's no way you're going to use the vehicle's speed to generate power, beyond reclaiming power during breaking. Just not possible.

But I think one of the advantages to electric vehicles is that they should drive innovation in other areas of electric production: vehicles that come with solar-panel modules that can help to recharge the battery while driving. I don't think we're close to purely solar-power cars, but if a solar panel roof is robust enough and can prolong battery life by even 15%, that's a big advantage. Some commuters who park outside may even find that by the time they get off work, their car may be back to a full charge.

Or the emphasis on sources of electricity may make it a realistic investment for someone to develop an inexpensive wind turbine / battery combination for farming applications.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Drag caused would be greater than the power they produced, right?

I agree with your point though, there's no way you're going to use the vehicle's speed to generate power, beyond reclaiming power during breaking. Just not possible.

But I think one of the advantages to electric vehicles is that they should drive innovation in other areas of electric production: vehicles that come with solar-panel modules that can help to recharge the battery while driving. I don't think we're close to purely solar-power cars, but if a solar panel roof is robust enough and can prolong battery life by even 15%, that's a big advantage. Some commuters who park outside may even find that by the time they get off work, their car may be back to a full charge.

Or the emphasis on sources of electricity may make it a realistic investment for someone to develop an inexpensive wind turbine / battery combination for farming applications.

Whoops, fixed, it.
But I think my point was clear enough.

[Bill Bumface]

Apparently cell phones were a big part of why electric cars are closer to being viable. Battery R&D was and continues to be huge in mobile communications devices as they demand more and more power.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

Apparently cell phones were a big part of why electric cars are closer to being viable. Battery R&D was and continues to be huge in mobile communications devices as they demand more and more power.

Not just for that reason.
Battery power is obviously less explosive, which will really help reduce the number of cars exploding after accidents caused by stupid people that think they can drive with a phone in one hand and a sandwich in the other.

Ahh, cellphones and sandwiches, a combo that will truely save the world.

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Not just for that reason.
Battery power is obviously less explosive, which will really help reduce the number of cars exploding after accidents caused by stupid people that think they can drive with a phone in one hand and a sandwich in the other.

Ahh, cellphones and sandwiches, a combo that will truely save the world.

How many cars are exploding when they crash now? That number wont increase if hydrogen is adopted.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/sc...hydrogen.cars/

What about safety? Safety issues are a major concern for a fuel that's often perceived as more dangerous than others. While hydrogen itself played no part in either catastrophe, it was the fuel in both the Hindenburg and the Challenger.
Wagner says consumers should not fear a hydrogen-powered vehicle.
"Of course there is some risk, but it is comparable to the risk we have with conventional automotive fuels," he said.
BMW conducted numerous crash tests to see what would happen if the hydrogen tank was punctured or damaged. Their engineers report the liquid hydrogen dissipated harmlessly into the air.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by arsenal

How many cars are exploding when they crash now? That number wont increase if hydrogen is adopted.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/sc...hydrogen.cars/

Do you hear that whooshing sound arsenal?

[SebC]

What a train wreck of a thread.

Originally Posted by arsenal

Electricity is also an energy carrier, not a source. What's your point? By that argument, electricity is not a good idea for cars either.

That's the smartest thing you've said in this thread.

Originally Posted by Igottago

Nice..I'm not a big car buff but its nice to see a car that sheds some of the myths about electric cars and their performance. These guys seem to have engineered a pretty sweet ride. I liked the video with Jay Leno driving it. If I had the cash the environmentalist in me would consider this car.

If you were an environmentalist, you'd consider switching to a car that plugs into an outlet, which gets it power from coal-burning power plants?

Originally Posted by FlameFanStuckinEDM

Does anybody know if the idea of a self-charging car has been brought up in the industry?

What I am thinking of, is a car with a wind turbine somehow incorporated into the design. The car would have the battery power to move the car, then the battery could be charged by the wind turbine as the air passes through it. I know it probably would not be the best looking vehicle, but, I am sure that over time the more aesthetically pleasing designs would be produced.

With this design, you would be able to drive as far as you wanted to and maybe only plug the car in for a short time when you reach your destination. I am not quite sure yet how the issue of traffic jams would be solved though.

That's called a perpertual motion machine. It doesn't work. The US patent office rejects ideas like this because so that the patent system doesn't get clogged by a bunch of things that don't work. You'd just be losing energy by converting it into kinetic energy (the motion of the car) and then back into electricity (via the turbine).

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by SebC

If you were an environmentalist, you'd consider switching to a car that plugs into an outlet, which gets it power from coal-burning power plants?

This argument gets so very old. Yes, if I was an environmentalist I would buy a car that plugs in to a coal power plant.