Ontario man tazed, dies

[jayswin]

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...3-3d981aee55eb

- He probably had a pre-existing medical condition
- Would you rather they shot him instead? (cause that's the only alternative)
- Why do people bring up EVERY taser related death
- Why isn't there a thread on the guy that DIDN'T die from being tasered?
- He probably did something to deserve it, and therefore his death is justified
- Why is everyone against police, it seems they can't do anything right with you people


Wow, there's been 20 taser related deaths in Canada since 2003, and more than 300 across North America.

[Devils'Advocate]

I agree totally. "Being disruptive" deserves the death penalty. Heck, jay walking deserves the death penalty. That will fix this country.

Twenty deaths is nowhere near enough. We need to have the police using the tasers more. That will teach "disruptive" people.

[metallicat]

The article has literally NO information on what happened during the encounter with police, other than to say he got combative. No reason to comment until more information comes out.

I do feel sorry for cops who have to work in extremely isolated areas though, with little to no backup.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by flameswin

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...3-3d981aee55eb

- He probably had a pre-existing medical condition
- Would you rather they shot him instead? (cause that's the only alternative)
- Why do people bring up EVERY taser related death
- Why isn't there a thread on the guy that DIDN'T die from being tasered?
- He probably did something to deserve it, and therefore his death is justified
- Why is everyone against police, it seems they can't do anything right with you people


Wow, there's been 20 taser related deaths in Canada since 2003, and more than 300 across North America.

Twenty deaths is nowhere near enough. We need to have the police using the tasers more. That will teach "disruptive" people.

24 police officers (in the USA alone) dead this year at the hands of criminals.

http://www.odmp.org/year.php

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by transplant99

24 police officers (in the USA alone) dead this year at the hands of criminals.

http://www.odmp.org/year.php

That doesn't count.

[FLAMESRULE]

Dont do the crime if you cant do the time (in this case permanently). It was on the news last night saying he was swinging a metal stair (just the treaded part) at people and cars. Apparently he lost his job and his girlfriend within 2 weeks and was coping by doing drugs and drinking.

Call me cold hearted, but boo freaking hoo. Cops have a tough, tough, job and the last thing they need is getting a stair to the forehead. Unless you want to start getting shot, which last I checked has a higher death rate, Tasers are really the only current non-lethal method to subdue some nut job. Did he deserve to die, no clearly not. Did some of his decisions lead to his death, absolutely.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by FLAMESRULE

Dont do the crime if you cant do the time (in this case permanently). It was on the news last night saying he was swinging a metal stair (just the treaded part) at people and cars. Apparently he lost his job and his girlfriend within 2 weeks and was coping by doing drugs and drinking.

Call me cold hearted, but boo freaking hoo. Cops have a tough, tough, job and the last thing they need is getting a stair to the forehead. Unless you want to start getting shot, which last I checked has a higher death rate, Tasers are really the only current non-lethal method to subdue some nut job. Did he deserve to die, no clearly not. Did some of his decisions lead to his death, absolutely.

I think you're missing the main point....tasing is supposed to be non-lethal. Clearly its not. So to use it as a non-lethal form of dealing with someone is clearly a flawed strategy. It has nothing to do with how many cops died or what this guy was doing before it happened. Everyone knows a cops job is tough.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I agree totally. "Being disruptive" deserves the death penalty. Heck, jay walking deserves the death penalty. That will fix this country.

Twenty deaths is nowhere near enough. We need to have the police using the tasers more. That will teach "disruptive" people.

You are right. Screw punishment. Let everyone do whatever they want in public. THAT is the way to solve the problem.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I think you're missing the main point....tasing is supposed to be non-lethal. Clearly its not. So to use it as a non-lethal form of dealing with someone is clearly a flawed strategy. It has nothing to do with how many cops died or what this guy was doing before it happened. Everyone knows a cops job is tough.

I think there's been a mislabeling of tasers and other weapons that police are trying out (pepper canon, bean bag gun etc). There's no such thing as a non-lethal weapon unless its used by Spiderman. Once you aim any kind of weapon and deploy it, your taking the chance that its going to kill the person that your aiming at. I remember when rubber bullets were suppossed to be the great crowd control device. Of course a rubber bullet to the head or the chest, will probably kill you.

What they should do is label these as "we're doing everything that we can not to kill the idiot" weapon.

Maybe they should do a public safety ad around tazers, they can make it like the drug ad with the happy family walking down the beach to soft music, and the voice comes over.

"Tazers can be effective in subdoing out of control people who have drank to much or done the wrong drug or are just plain idiots. But the real effectiveness of tazers is its suppossed to be more about protecting the public then protecting the idiot.

Side effects may include defecation of trousers, convulsions, broken limbs, loss of memory and death.

Do not take a tazer shot, tazer shots can be avoided by calming the hell down, listening to the police officer and not putting your life in jeopardy"

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I agree totally. "Being disruptive" deserves the death penalty. Heck, jay walking deserves the death penalty. That will fix this country.

Twenty deaths is nowhere near enough. We need to have the police using the tasers more. That will teach "disruptive" people.

Swinging a weapon, stair part at people and cars is more then being disruptive.

I have trouble feeling sympathy for these people.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

"Tazers can be effective in subdoing out of control people who have drank to much or done the wrong drug or are just plain idiots. But the real effectiveness of tazers is its suppossed to be more about protecting the public then protecting the idiot.

Side effects may include defecation of trousers, convulsions, broken limbs, loss of memory and death.

Do not take a tazer shot, tazer shots can be avoided by calming the hell down, listening to the police officer and not putting your life in jeopardy"

But how are the poor methhead victims supposed to know that they need to calm down when they are out of their minds high?

WONT SOME PLEASE THING OF THE POOR DRUG ADDICTS.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Swinging a weapon, stair part at people and cars is more then being disruptive.

I have trouble feeling sympathy for these people.

So what if one of those students in the US who got tased, had actually died? You wouldn't have any sympathy for them? Does the punishement fit the crime in that scenario as well?

If, as you stated earlier, everyone acknowledges that tasers are potentially lethal, then police need to be extremely careful about where and when they use them. Problem is, I think a lot of police/law enforcement probably view them as non-lethal and may be to quick to resort to it.

Some of you are acting like killing someone is no big deal. Well, ask the cops that did it...i'm sure its a big deal to them. Ask the victims families.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by Igottago

So what if one of those students in the US who got tased, had actually died? You wouldn't have any sympathy for them? Does the punishement fit the crime in that scenario as well?

You mean the students who were sober, belligerent and actually had the nerve to spit on a police officer? In a situation that wasn't really acceptable to use pepper spray because of all the bystanders? If one of them because a rare accidental Taser death would I feel sympathy?

Not at all bros, not at all.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

You mean the students who were sober, belligerent and actually had the nerve to spit on a police officer? In a situation that wasn't really acceptable to use pepper spray because of all the bystanders? If one of them because a rare accidental Taser death would I feel sympathy?

Not at all bros, not at all.

Whether people feel sympathetic towards people who have died from tasers isn't really the point, no one in this thread was asking for your sympathy. You have every right to say they deserve it, or that it's a good method of dealing with beligerant folk, but that doesn't mean the argument is moot.

I guess what's confusing about this thread is the fact that I used the article of the latest taser death to illustrate the point that yet another person has died as a direct result of the weapon, it had nothing to do with the incident or what the guy did to get tasered. My point is if this guy died and 20 other people died in Canada since 2003, then is it really an effective non-lethal weapon for police?

You can put me in the crowd that thinks if one person who didn't have to be tasered gets tasered, then that's one too many, if these things are killing people. That's fine if you guys think it's okay if there are some casualties along the way, because that's the price their families have to pay for police to be more protected, but I just can't see it that way. I guess I'm kind of a bleeding heart that way, but I just think they have to start looking into alternatives, or else it should get the point where a cop shooting someone with a taser would be considered the same as pulling a gun on someone.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Whether people feel sympathetic towards people who have died from tasers isn't really the point, no one in this thread was asking for your sympathy. You have every right to say they deserve it, or that it's a good method of dealing with beligerant folk, but that doesn't mean the argument is moot.

I guess what's confusing about this thread is the fact that I used the article of the latest taser death to illustrate the point that yet another person has died as a direct result of the weapon, it had nothing to do with the incident or what the guy did to get tasered. My point is if this guy died and 20 other people died in Canada since 2003, then is it really an effective non-lethal weapon for police?

You can put me in the crowd that thinks if one person who didn't have to be tasered gets tasered, then that's one too many, if these things are killing people. That's fine if you guys think it's okay if there are some casualties along the way, because that's the price their families have to pay for police to be more protected, but I just can't see it that way. I guess I'm kind of a bleeding heart that way, but I just think they have to start looking into alternatives, or else it should get the point where a cop shooting someone with a taser would be considered the same as pulling a gun on someone.

How many people have been tasered since 2003? 10,000? 50,000? 100,000? You expect 0 deaths? Police don't know about pre-existing conditions that contribute to the deaths of those they tase. The people being tased probably are aware of said pre-existing conditions. In addition, how many of the 20 were under the influence of some sort of controlled substance? That probably factors in as well.

My point is that if you want to control the idiots, there's bound to be a few get killed. Heck, even pepper spray... I'm sure there are people out there allergic to it who would react and die. There is no way to ensure that a person being belligerent and disruptive and resisting arrest will NOT die when the police subdue him. Even if the takedown is an easy one, what if the guy has a heart attack?

It's not perfect, but then I'm fairly certain that nothing will be. Protect the police and the public first. Worry about the idiots after. Until they find something less lethal, I'm okay with the death rate. You don't want to die, don't be a belligerent ass. Fairly simple.

[Swarly]

Originally Posted by flameswin

You can put me in the crowd that thinks if one person who didn't have to be tasered gets tasered, then that's one too many, if these things are killing people. That's fine if you guys think it's okay if there are some casualties along the way, because that's the price their families have to pay for police to be more protected, but I just can't see it that way. I guess I'm kind of a bleeding heart that way, but I just think they have to start looking into alternatives, or else it should get the point where a cop shooting someone with a taser would be considered the same as pulling a gun on someone.

I completely agree with you, police should just go back to shooting these a-holes. That will result in less deaths, oh wait...

I'd like to see the stats on how many people get tased per year that don't die. We always hear about the one guy that did but I'm sure they are in the extreme minority. I still think the taser is a much better alternative to getting shot, you would see that 20 people in 5 years number skyrocket.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by FireFly

How many people have been tasered since 2003? 10,000? 50,000? 100,000? You expect 0 deaths? Police don't know about pre-existing conditions that contribute to the deaths of those they tase. The people being tased probably are aware of said pre-existing conditions. In addition, how many of the 20 were under the influence of some sort of controlled substance? That probably factors in as well.

My point is that if you want to control the idiots, there's bound to be a few get killed. Heck, even pepper spray... I'm sure there are people out there allergic to it who would react and die. There is no way to ensure that a person being belligerent and disruptive and resisting arrest will NOT die when the police subdue him. Even if the takedown is an easy one, what if the guy has a heart attack?

It's not perfect, but then I'm fairly certain that nothing will be. Protect the police and the public first. Worry about the idiots after. Until they find something less lethal, I'm okay with the death rate. You don't want to die, don't be a belligerent ass. Fairly simple.

I have been a belligerant ass in my life (when I was younger and drunk)(and I'm assuming many on this board have been at some point in their life) ,and I have had heart problems in the past (including a heart attack), and I would hate to die from a taser shock because the police officer felt I was being belligerant and felt it was easier to just tase me. I don't quite agree with your opinion that because someone's being belligerant it's okay for them to die, and they should have known better. Death is a pretty harsh sentance for getting drunk and being belligerant imho.

[Swarly]

Originally Posted by flameswin

I have been a belligerant ass in my life (when I was younger and drunk)(and I'm assuming many on this board have been at some point in their life) ,and I have had heart problems in the past (including a heart attack), and I would hate to die from a taser shock because the police officer felt I was being belligerant and felt it was easier to just tase me. I don't quite agree with your opinion that because someone's being belligerant it's okay for them to die, and they should have known better. Death is a pretty harsh sentance for getting drunk and being belligerant imho.

there is a big difference between being young and drunk belligerent and high out of your mind swinging objects at people in the public belligerent.

[Locke]

I think some people are missing the point.

Tasers aren't supposed to kill people, hence the term "Non-Lethal." When they occasionally kill people, they're not really a non-lethal deterrent anymore are they? Semi-lethal?

Unfortunately swinging a stair around in a drug induced frenzy doesn't constitute the death penalty. Last time I checked, nothing constitutes the death penalty.

Heres the thing, everyone acts like an idiot every now and then. Its a fact of life. Maybe not to same degree, but it happens nonetheless.

Just because this guy was having a rough day and he toked a bad batch of meth or whatever and started swinging a step around doesnt mean that society writes him off and calls it a day.

Hell, a stair tread is exponentially less lethal than tasers apparently. How many people have died in the last couple years from stairs being used as bludgeoning devices? Probably not many.

You're condemning one person over a very, very small sample size of their lives.

And I think people should be looking at alternatives. What if instead of tasering this dude they'd just sat there and waited until he got tired or hungry and then took the stair away from him?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Whether people feel sympathetic towards people who have died from tasers isn't really the point, no one in this thread was asking for your sympathy. You have every right to say they deserve it, or that it's a good method of dealing with beligerant folk, but that doesn't mean the argument is moot.

I guess what's confusing about this thread is the fact that I used the article of the latest taser death to illustrate the point that yet another person has died as a direct result of the weapon, it had nothing to do with the incident or what the guy did to get tasered. My point is if this guy died and 20 other people died in Canada since 2003, then is it really an effective non-lethal weapon for police?

You can put me in the crowd that thinks if one person who didn't have to be tasered gets tasered, then that's one too many, if these things are killing people. That's fine if you guys think it's okay if there are some casualties along the way, because that's the price their families have to pay for police to be more protected, but I just can't see it that way. I guess I'm kind of a bleeding heart that way, but I just think they have to start looking into alternatives, or else it should get the point where a cop shooting someone with a taser would be considered the same as pulling a gun on someone.

Ok - Lets take a look at the options out there.

Acoustic Weapons - examples of Curdler, Acoustic bullets, Beam. Infrasound

Basically two forms, some use high frequency sound waves such as a shriek or scream effect, is more of a weapon to break up riots. The bullets or beams use a low frequency effect that basically applies blunt force trauma to the target. It has been shown to be fatal. The Infrasound is interesting because it causes nausea and loss of bowel control.

Optical weapons - such as flash bangs, air burst simulators,

More effective as a crowd control device, causes disorientation and temporary blindness, but also effects the person using it. Not guaranteed to stop someone in a threatening position

Laser non lethal - used to temporarily blind a person, but it doesn't really put them on the ground, they can still shoot, or stab or whatever. Not effective. Can cause permanent vision problems.

Narcotic gas - Used by the Russians in a hostage situtation a few years ago. Its an area gas so it effected hostages and hostage takes, also didn't disarm or put the terrorists down, it allowed them to continue to be a threat to the hostages

Pepper spray/pepper bullets - Area weapon that can cause lung issues in peeople with respiratory illnesses. Someone on drugs like Meth or LSD will walk right through it and ignore the effects. Dosen't stop the crazy person from shooting or stabbing or attacking.

Barrier agents - Multiple forms that can be used in spray or explosive devices to coat the target with a adhesive. Biggest issue is that the target remains concious and aware and that person still remains a threat to the victims or arresting officers

Blunt force projectile - The infamous rubber bullets, sand bag shot guns. Can take a target down effectively, but like the tazer can cause fatal interuptions in heart activity, or head trauma.

Batons, ASPs - Used to basically beat the victim to the ground. Beyond the legal issues in that every deployment of them causes a law suit, beating a person to a pulp is never pretty and tazers are considered to be more humanitarian and the effects are shorter term.

Microwave technology - The U.S. army is looking at this for crowd control, it basically makes you feel like every square inch of your body is on fire. Again for the drug user who's somewhat immune to pain, this might not have the immediate effect on them thats required. Extremely painful, can cause target to go into shock, suffer heart attacks or strokes.

Entangler technology - Think planet of the ape, a gun deployed net that envelopes the target. Not effective in a lot of ways because it doesn't disarm the target or debilitate them. The only way that its been shown to be effective is with the addition of electricity.

Bullets - The real thing, almost always fatal because police officers are trained to put bullets in the center mass. The other problem is that bullets can pass right through the victim and pose a danger to someone out of sight.

There are more, but I wanted to highlight that again there's no such thing as a non lethal weapon, they should actually be called less then lethal weapons, and we can't hit them with pillows. As well the consideration to the target takes second priority to

1) Stopping the target
2) Debilitating the target for as long as possible
3) Disarming the target
4) reducing or removing the threat to victims, property and public safety
5) The life of the target.

In terms based around Less then lethal, then the tazer is functioning exactly as its programmed to. However the issue isn't about removing the tazer from the police arsenal, because any of the systems above when deployed can have various effects ranging from debilitation to death depending of the target. Once you pull the trigger or swing the club your control over the situation is gone.

Is there a way to make tazers less hazardous - Sure but then you get into the argument that it loses its effectiveness, and you handicap or put the police officers life in jeopardy. If you reduce the voltage that goes through it, you run the risk of some idiot not being put down.

Personally though, unless you give the police a reason to stun you, shoot you, beat you down, then you never run the risk of dying from it. And no, I don't have much sympathy for the Meth head who endangers the police of or the public and gets shocked. But thats a whole other argument about personal choice and self medication.