10 Digit Numbers Coming, and a new Area Code

[Shawnski]

Originally Posted by exile183

OK, there is a *LOT* of misinformation in this thread which needs some clearing up.

Someone has mentioned that you could get a 587 number in Edmonton, then move to Calgary and take that number with you. This is false and it comes from a misunderstanding of how a distributed overlay works.

Actually, there wasn't a LOT of misinformation. And if you are refering to this post in the second quoted paragraph....

Originally Posted by Shawnski

I would expect with number portability that you will see people moving 780 numbers down south and people with 403 numbers moving them north. Today there is a north south split. That won't last long.

What you fail to grasp is that now that the phone number/carrier/platform relationship is broken due to number portability, it is the next likely step that the NPA/NXX to home calling area will also change. This would require a CRTC authorization, but I DO foresee it coming.

At no time, however, did I indicate that can happen right now.

[exile183]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

Actually, there wasn't a LOT of misinformation. And if you are refering to this post in the second quoted paragraph....



What you fail to grasp is that now that the phone number/carrier/platform relationship is broken due to number portability, it is the next likely step that the NPA/NXX to home calling area will also change. This would require a CRTC authorization, but I DO foresee it coming.

At no time, however, did I indicate that can happen right now.

That may not have been your intent but that's how it clearly came across.

You stated that "number portability" would lead to 403 numbers heading north and 780 numbers heading south. We have number portability now but numbers are still tied to ratecentres, and will be for the foreseeable future.

I don't see any way for that relationship to be broken without a much more fundamental restructuring of how the phone system works, nor do I see any demand for it - from customers or telco. And because it would be such a fundamental change - incompatible with the existing system - the only way the CRTC could unilaterally impose this (without the cooperation of the FCC and the governments of all the other nations in world zone "1") would be for Canada to withdraw from the NANP and switch to our own country-code. Not likely to happen without a compelling need.

As many here have expressed, it's useful from a customer's point of view to be able to learn which CO codes are "local" and which are not. Number portability doesn't change this - not fundamentally. A 403-288 number originally assigned to a Bowness customer is still a "local to Calgary" number even if that customer moves to Bridgeland or Douglasdale. Portability outside ratecentres would bring mass confusion. Nobody wants it, nobody's asking for it. Well, except one guy I know, but he's kind of a renegade.

[exile183]

Originally Posted by 4X4

So... How long until NA runs out of area codes? If Alberta is scooping 3 of 999, I'd imagine that the well will be running dry pretty soon. And when that happens, what will be the next stage in telephone number evolution?

First off, there aren't 999 (or 1000) available area codes under the current system. There are a fairly large number of 3-digit combinations that are not allowed as area codes under the current system, although some parts of this can change.

1) Area codes cannot begin with the digit "0" or "1". This would cause conflict with existing dialing prefixes.

2) Area codes cannot have a middle digit of "9". This is reserved for expansion of the area code system (which is your second question and I'll get to that shortly).

3) Area code combinations cannot conflict with existing 3-digit quick-access codes, ie: 911, 411, and so on. There's actually no technical reason for this, but more to avoid customer confusion and accidental misdials. (For the same reason, the central office codes "912", "914", and "915" are usually not assigned in most area codes because they lead to accidental misdials of 911. This restriction is sometimes lifted if an area code runs EXTREMELY short of office codes, as happened in 1998 when "912" got assigned to Airdrie. This restriction disappears once 10-digit dialing becomes mandatory in an area code.)

4) Area codes whose third digit is a repeat of the second digit are, currently, reserved for "special purposes", mostly yet to be defined. This includes things like 800/888/877/866 for toll-free calls, 900, 500/533, and so on. For this reason, Nevada was once denied the use of "777" as an expansion area code, settling instead for 775. I expect that as we run low on area codes, a number of these "reserved" codes will be freed up for assignment as regular geographic area codes.

This leaves us with approximately 600 area codes (not including any that get "reclaimed" as per #4). According to a manual count I just did, 357 of them have been assigned (including 587). We're more than half full.

Estimates as to when we'll run out vary widely and such predictions tend to change as demand changes - there was a huge "run" on area codes from 1995 to 2002, then hardly any from 2003 to 2006, and now we're picking up steam again. Best guesses place the "exhaust" point between 2030 and 2050.

So what then? No plan has been agreed upon, but most experts predict that, as a necessary precursor to expansion, we'll see the following occur:

1) 10-digit dialing becomes mandatory throughout the North American Numbering Plan.

2) There will need to be a rather lengthy "phase-in" period. Going from 10-digits to more-than-10 will be a *HUGE* undertaking, and not just for the phone company but for all of us. Any computer software that records phone numbers will need to be adapted or replaced, just for starters. It will take time to make all these changes, so any sort of "flash cut" will be out of the question (ie: you can't just say we're going to switch from 10-digit dialing to 12-digit dialing on January 1st 2051).

Once these elements are in place there are a number of competing plans for expansion. Here are the ones I've seen discussed most commonly:

1) Move to 12-digits by inserting either "00" or "11" between the existing area code and the central office code, with "00" being for numbers in the USA and "11" for numbers in Canada. The reason for this distinction is unclear to me (and unnecessary in my opinion) and doesn't account for the Caribbean nations that share our numbering system. Under this plan, "403-555-1212" would become "4031-1555-1212".

2a) Move to 11-digits by inserting the currently-reserved digit "9" as the second digit of the area code. "403-555-1212" becomes "4903-555-1212"

2b) Move to 12-digits by inserting the currently-reserved digit "9" as the second digit of the area code *AND* adding the digit "3" as the first digit of the now-8-digit phone number. "403-555-1212" becomes "4903-3555-1212". This plan has a cool name that helps people remember exactly how their number will change as well as every number they dial: it's called "9+3=12" (insert 9 and 3 to get 12-digits).

These contortions are necessary to permit the phone system to handle *BOTH* the old-style 10-digit numbers and the newer 11-digit or 12-digit numbers SIMULTANEOUSLY during the phase-in period.

Currently, the fourth digit of a 10-digit number cannot be "0" or "1" (first digit of the 7-digit local number). During phase-in of plan #1, if you dial a 12-digit number, the 4th digit *MUST* be "0" or "1" and thus it knows to expect (and route) a 12-digit call - but if you dial it as 10-digits, the fourth digit will *NEVER* be "0" or "1".

Similarly, under plans #2a and #2b, the second digit of the area code CANNOT be "9" if it's a 10-digit number, but *MUST* be "9" if it's an 11-digit or 12-digit number.

It has also been suggested that, once we have mandatory 10-digit dialing throughout the NANP, we can start using "0" or "1" as the leading digit of the central office code. This is true but causes some back-end complications - these complications could be resolved, and would result in a 20% increase in the available numbers in *EVERY* area code, which would probably gain us another 15 to 20 years. It would also rule out expansion plan #1.

For more on this, visit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_A...plan_expansion

[exile183]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

What you fail to grasp is that now that the phone number/carrier/platform relationship is broken due to number portability, it is the next likely step that the NPA/NXX to home calling area will also change.

I'd like to address this point in more detail. It's kinda technical, so for those whose eyes have already glazed over from my previous phone-geek posts, please feel free to skip.

Technically, the number/carrier/platform relationship has not been broken at all. It may seem like that from the consumer's point of view, but behind the scenes, that relationship is very much alive.

My phone number is 403-313-xxxx. The 403-313 office code is associated with Rogers Home Phone, formerly Sprint Canada, and was assigned to me the day local service competition opened up back in the late 90's (I was, I'm told, the third customer they signed up in Calgary). I have, alas, "ported" that number to Telus, mainly because I needed Telus landline service in order to use my current DSL provider's services.

When you dial 403-313-xxxx to reach me, the phone system will do one of a variety of things to determine WHERE that number is. In the past, all they needed was a single lookup to figure out where the heck 403-313 was, and then route to that switch. But now things are different, and except for a few antiquated switches here and there throughout North America, the call is never just simply routed to the "home" switch for that central office code. Instead, one of a number of techniques are used to first figure out if that number has been ported or not, and if so, to which switch was it ported? Once that's done, the call gets routed to the appropriate switch (in my case, to the Calgary Mount Royal switch designated CLGRAB06DS0).

But what happens if I give up this number? I call Telus and say "that's it, I don't want your service anymore". This number does *NOT* stay with Telus for re-assignment to future customers, in Mount Royal or anywhere else in Calgary. It goes back to Rogers.

Things would get extra complicated if, as I've contemplated, I were to decide to sign up for Shaw Home Phone service and port this number again, this time to Shaw. This is a very complicated maneuver and requires the cooperation of all three telcos:

1) Shaw puts in the port request. This is passed along to both Telus (who currently hosts the number) and Rogers (whose switch is the initial home of that number).

2) Telus releases the number.

3) The number "snaps-in" to Rogers.

4) The numbers "snaps-out" from Rogers over to Shaw.

My point in describing all this is to show clearly that my 403-313-xxxx phone number, regardless of whether I take it to Telus or Shaw or Virgin Mobile or wherever, always remains affiliated with Rogers. And the telcos have to expend a great deal of manpower and resources to make this all work. Taking this another step, to allow portability outside of ratecentres, would magnify this problem exponentially for little to no gain.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by VANFLAMESFAN

I don't even really remember what it was like to dial a seven digit number.

Anyone else in here old enough to remember dialing 5 digit numbers?

[Daradon]

Alright, don't skip over this one folks, I got something here.

Universal Portability will be here soon thanks to VOiP. It's already happening, the deals just have to be made.

Worked with a company that has 'plug and play' phones. You can take your set anywhere in the world, plug it in, and use the same ten digit phone number.

Ok, so not quite anywhere yet, but lots of places you wouldn't expect.

They are working on a 10 digit system, but ultimately it will probably go 12.

Expect it in 15 years. Universal phone code.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by T@T

Anyone else in here old enough to remember dialing 5 digit numbers?

No, though when I first when to Aus, they still had many 6 digit numbers. They also had 7 and 8.

Now it's all eight down there. Though the first one is like their area code, which you always have to put in, like we will have to put in the first 3 of a total 10 now.

As I said above though, it's all going to one system. Which makes sense with phones becoming more portable. 15 years you'll have 1 or 2 12 digit numbers which will be YOURS for the whole world.

[Resolute 14]

So what then? No plan has been agreed upon, but most experts predict that, as a necessary precursor to expansion, we'll see the following occur:

1) 10-digit dialing becomes mandatory throughout the North American Numbering Plan.

2) There will need to be a rather lengthy "phase-in" period. Going from 10-digits to more-than-10 will be a *HUGE* undertaking, and not just for the phone company but for all of us. Any computer software that records phone numbers will need to be adapted or replaced, just for starters. It will take time to make all these changes, so any sort of "flash cut" will be out of the question (ie: you can't just say we're going to switch from 10-digit dialing to 12-digit dialing on January 1st 2051).

The experts should get on their horses and agree to a plan soon, for the very fact of how many things will have to be changed. The sooner they do this, the less hastle it will be once the switchover becomes necessary.

Same reason why the majority of computer NICs produced today are capable of supporting IPv6 even though we have not yet exhausted the limits of IPv4. When the switchover becomes necessary, most pieces of hardware will already support it (save for poor grandma who still uses her P-75MHz Windows 95 machine to play bridge with her girlfriends on the internet), so the costs to the consumer, and even the providers for new hardware will be limited.

Personally, I'm surprised they even would consider releasing 912 as a home code, even if it seems necessary. They stopped assigning 912 numbers to Airdrie a few years ago because the number of misdials to 911 went way up. They now assign 945, which they probably could have done in the first place had they thought about it.

[exile183]

Originally Posted by T@T

Anyone else in here old enough to remember dialing 5 digit numbers?

I remember living in southern Saskatchewan in the early 70's as a kid, first in the town of Bateman and then later Mazenod. Bateman numbers were all 306-269, and Mazenod were all 306-354. In both cases, you could dial local calls as 4-digits, by omitting the central office code completely.

Until the late 70's or early 80's, all Calgary phone numbers began with the digit "2". For quite a while, you could dial any number in the city as 6-digits, by dropping that leading "2". The flipside is that they couldn't assign central office codes like "291" or "241" under this scheme. Consider if your number was "291-1234" and somebody dialed it without the "2". :-) The third digit couldn't be "1" or "0". There was also a similar scheme in Edmonton, with all numbers starting with "4", which for a long time you could omit.

Then they ran out of numbers and started enforcing 7-digit dialing, allowing numbers like "291-1234" to be assigned. And then, finally, they ran out of numbers starting with "2" completely, and had to move to numbers that begin with a digit other than "2". (At this time, for other technical reasons, the middle digit could not be "0" or "1", so numbers from 200 through 219 were unassignable. These later did become assignable, and all 20 of those codes are now in use in Calgary.)

The first two central office codes not starting with "2" to be assigned in Calgary were 547 and 569, and I happened to get "569-0008".

So ingrained in people's minds was this notion that "all Calgary numbers start with 2" that this caused me lots of problems. On a few occasions, a taxi I had ordered or a pizza I had ordered DID NOT ARRIVE, because the phone operator who took my call flat out didn't believe me when I said my number was 569-0008 - they thought it was a joke call.

The kicker was one time when I called Telus to order a second line, and I was put through to a lady in Edmonton who was taking the details of my order. She needed a phone number to reach me at, so I gave her the number of my first line, 569-0008. And *SHE* didn't believe me either, for something like ten minutes. In frustration I finally suggested she put me on hold while she made a couple of calls to confirm that this really was a Calgary number. Finally, she comes back on the line sheepishly and admits she was wrong. She came to this realization by simply plugging my request into her computer and seeing which phone number the system assigned for my second line. It, too, started with "569".

Nowadays, it seems like only us old-time-Calgarians remember the "Calgary numbers start with 2" rule, as the vast majority of numbers here no longer do.

[exile183]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The experts should get on their horses and agree to a plan soon, for the very fact of how many things will have to be changed. The sooner they do this, the less hastle it will be once the switchover becomes necessary.

Same reason why the majority of computer NICs produced today are capable of supporting IPv6 even though we have not yet exhausted the limits of IPv4. When the switchover becomes necessary, most pieces of hardware will already support it (save for poor grandma who still uses her P-75MHz Windows 95 machine to play bridge with her girlfriends on the internet), so the costs to the consumer, and even the providers for new hardware will be limited.

Personally, I'm surprised they even would consider releasing 912 as a home code, even if it seems necessary. They stopped assigning 912 numbers to Airdrie a few years ago because the number of misdials to 911 went way up. They now assign 945, which they probably could have done in the first place had they thought about it.

I vehemently agree: because the switch to 12-digit dialing will require a seriously major effort on the part of EVERYBODY even tangentially related to telephony, the more lead time we get, the better off we'll all be.

As for 912, this *WAS* correct for a while: they stopped assigning such numbers and also stopped re-assigning them after they'd gone out of service, for the reasons you specified (and opened up the 945 office code to take up the slack). This practice has stopped, for two reasons:

1) The 403 area code is now in what's called a "Jeopardy" situation. Alex Trebek is not involved, but it does mean that extraordinary measures are taken to reduce the demand for new central office codes. This means that, until the Jeopardy is lifted, no new central office codes will be assigned to Telus in Airdrie unless deemed absolutely essential - and this overrides the concern about 911 misdials, so 912 numbers are again being assigned in Airdrie.

Under Jeopardy you'll also see a much shorter period for reassignment of numbers. Normally, if a residential number goes out of service, it is held out of service for six months before becoming available for reassignment. Under Jeopardy, this shortens to two months. And so on.

The Jeopardy is scheduled to be lifted in August, which is a point in time 60 days prior to the availability of 587 number assignments, which can start in October.

2) With the imminent advent of 10-digit dialing in Airdrie and the rest of Alberta, the "misdial" scenario simply disappears. While it's true today that you might misdial a 912 number as 911 (simply by accidentally double-striking the "1" while dialing), this is no longer the case under 10-digit dialing, whereby you'd begin the call by dialing 4-0-3-9-1-2, which cannot be confused with a 911 call, which wouldn't have the leading "403" prepended. You'll also likely see "914" and "915" get assigned (in order to use up the remaining pool of 403 office codes) before you'll see any numbers in area code 587 appear in southern Alberta.

Telus currently has three office codes in Airdrie: 912, 945, and 948. However, there are competing telcos operating out there, so you can also find local numbers starting with 316 (Rogers), 420 (Bell West), 960 and 980 (Shaw).

[exile183]

There are some test numbers you can dial to see if your long distance provider can handle the new 587 area code, each run by a different carrier. They are:

1-587-510-TEST (8378) (does not yet seem to be in service)
1-587-610-TEST (8378) (operated by Telus)
1-587-810-TEST (8378) (operated by MTS Allstream)

All three numbers are physically hosted in the city of Calgary. My own dialing experience shows that Telus long distance service can reach these numbers, but Yak long distance service cannot, and neither can VoiceNetwork (a VOIP provider I use). I also cannot yet reach them on my Bell Mobility and Virgin Mobile cellphones.

Interestingly, because these are local numbers in Calgary, you should be able to dial them within Calgary without the leading "1". This doesn't seem to work yet - you get a recording saying the number you're trying to reach is a long distance call.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by exile183

Nowadays, it seems like only us old-time-Calgarians remember the "Calgary numbers start with 2" rule, as the vast majority of numbers here no longer do.

Lol. Last month I had a land line installed and I was so proud that I got a vintage Calgary ph# that starts with a 2.

exile, since you seem to know everything about phones, tell me why and when AGT became Telus.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by exile183

All three numbers are physically hosted in the city of Calgary. My own dialing experience shows that Telus long distance service can reach these numbers, but Yak long distance service cannot, and neither can VoiceNetwork (a VOIP provider I use). I also cannot yet reach them on my Bell Mobility and Virgin Mobile cellphones.

Bro, your knowledge is impressive, but your friends need to organize an intervention. You have too many phones.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Lol. Last month I had a land line installed and I was so proud that I got a vintage Calgary ph# that starts with a 2.

exile, since you seem to know everything about phones, tell me why and when AGT became Telus.

i got 2 with a 2 as well, must have been my lucky day, although i must admit i had not clue as to the significance before reading this thread

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Dan02

i got 2 with a 2 as well, must have been my lucky day, although i must admit i had not clue as to the significance before reading this thread

How old are you?


Best part about my phone number is that I'm in Bankview and they gave me a 244 number. I almost want to move to Bonavista and see if I can get a 278 number.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by 4X4

How old are you?


Best part about my phone number is that I'm in Bankview and they gave me a 244 number. I almost want to move to Bonavista and see if I can get a 278 number.

25

[exile183]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Bro, your knowledge is impressive, but your friends need to organize an intervention. You have too many phones.

ROFLMAO! Actually I only have two at the moment. At one time, when I had a bunch of DSL lines in my home for a business I was operating, I had six landlines and a cell. Now THAT is too many phones...

[exile183]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Lol. Last month I had a land line installed and I was so proud that I got a vintage Calgary ph# that starts with a 2.

exile, since you seem to know everything about phones, tell me why and when AGT became Telus.

The "why" is probably a matter of opinion but it happened in 1990 during an era when privatization of government-owned business was in vogue. Although created in 1990 as a holding company that would own Alberta Government Telephones (AGT), the Telus brand was not rolled out for consumers until 1996, at which point Telus had also purchased EdTel from the Edmonton municipal government - ending years of feuding between the two companies. Both AGT and EdTel were rebranded "Telus" at that time.

Interesting piece of trivia: the first work van to be repainted in Telus livery was used only for one week for a film shoot, and then repainted back to AGT livery. This was for an episode of "The X-Files" which was set in southern Alberta. A scene called for a phone company van to be used. At the time of the shooting, AGT was still the brand name and they were keeping the whole Telus image somewhat secret. But they wanted to use the Telus livery in the shoot because, by the time the episode appeared on TV, the rollout of the new brand would (by then) have taken place.

So the van was repainted and then delivered to the shooting scene on the back of a flatbed, covered in tarp so that the public wouldn't see it. The scenes were shot and the van was then returned to Telus, again under wraps, and repainted again in AGT livery.

[NSFL]

*Bump* Since today's the day.

And some info that's probably already been covered.
http://about.telus.com/publicpolicy/...t_dialing.html

[MelBridgeman]

hell i remeber 4 digit numbers