Euro 2008 - UEFA

[Flame Of Liberty]

Fabregas!

Haha the bores go home!

Well done Spain!

[FurnaceFace]

Awesome. Arsenal... I mean Spain wins.

Fantastic

[arloiginla]

Great to see Italy gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ricoFlame]

the russia/spain semi could be a heckuva match. looking forward to that one.

[jammies]

Good, enough of the boring Italians. Good game by the Spanish, they didn't show much finish despite their numerous chances, but they clearly were the better team throughout. Should be a good game between them and the Russians, the latter have really improved as the tournament has gone on and both teams have good pace and offensive instincts.

[Jagger]

Phew! I fully expected the Italians to win once it went to kicks. Spain has a terrible record on PK's, especially on this date in history. They've broken the curse! Glad that Italy are gone, they really are a boring team to watch. The semi-final match between Spain and Russia promises to be a really good one.

[GirlySports]

Zzzzz that was awful.

I usually defend Italy for not being as boring as people think but today they were god awful boring. Tactics were all wrong, couldn't put two passes together and trying to feed a useless striker. I think Toni is officially worse than Crouch! They even got the tactics of the shootout wrong! If you win the toss you're supposed to kick first! Terrible team and I'm glad both they and Donadoni are gone. (I'm sure Thunderball will have the blow-by-blow breakout and crucify his team)

Spain were ok but they ran out of ideas. Some of the crosses and finishing were pretty bad.

I'd like to see a Russia-Germany final. That would be fun.

[Locke]

You play for penalties, you die by penalties. The better team won.

Not with as much style or authority as I'm sure they would have liked, but as the Italians say, its the result that counts, not how you get it.

Italy knew they didnt have the offensive firepower to compete with Spain and they made sure they drew this out as long as they could.

In the end, Casillas > Buffon.

Although, in fairness I'd say Buffon was the best Italian player of the tournament.

As for Toni, hes actually a pretty good striker, but what do you expect him to do when Italy is defending with almost everyone behind the ball. Toni was up there by himself against the entire Spanish defence for most of the game, he wasnt going anywhere.

Italy was boring, painful to watch for the whole tournament. They should have left Di Natale at home.

[Jagger]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Z....... trying to feed a useless striker. I think Toni is officially worse than Crouch!

Toni is actually a useful striker, given the service, as is Crouch actually. Crouch is not a Benitez favourite but can be a decent player given half a chance. He just looks really awkward due to his ridiculous lanky frame. Toni was left isolated beyond belief. He had no chance to perform to an adequate level due to the all out defending tactics utilzed.

Locke sumarised it perfectly; you play for pens, you die by pens. I like that!

[arloiginla]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjZ-QnduVxg

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Jagger

Toni is actually a useful striker, given the service, as is Crouch actually. Crouch is not a Benitez favourite but can be a decent player given half a chance. He just looks really awkward due to his ridiculous lanky frame. Toni was left isolated beyond belief. He had no chance to perform to an adequate level due to the all out defending tactics utilzed.

Locke sumarised it perfectly; you play for pens, you die by pens. I like that!

It's the old argument:

Person A: Crouch is a great striker, he's always getting into scoring positions.

Person B: Crouch is awful, he can't finish when he's in a good positions.

I just rewatched a bit of the game (had it in the background as I'm doing some work) and I'm not sure the Italians played purposely for penalties. It wasn't their mentality I don't think. They're just an awful team. It's not that they didn't have any ambition to attack, they just had no skill to do so. Everytime they got the ball they tried to play it forward but they just did it in the wrong way.

[Thunderball]

Despite being an Italian fan, and actually liking the way they play (when they do it well), I'll do my best to give a balanced post-mortem.

What went wrong? In a word, everything. Specifically, the coach was wrong, the selections were wrong, there were critical injuries, the starting 11s were baffling at times, Toni was isolated, and yet, when he was given good service, managed to squander that too.

What went wrong today? Again, nothing. This was the absolute best that group could muster with the current leadership. They certainly did try to get to the PKs, because they did not have the horses to win in regulation. They expected Buffon to bail them out of superior Spanish spot kickers. Casillas isn't a better goalie... he didn't face the quality of shooters Buffon did. Grosso and Camoranesi were the only two I felt worthy of being in a shootout situation, and lo and behold, they made it look easy. The excuse that Pirlo wasn't there doesn't hold water. If you play for a shootout, don't take Cassano off, don't sub him out with Di Natale, and don't keep chaff like Ambrosini around.

Why did it look so bad? The system was/is outdated. The hardnosed tactical counterattack requires several very key components that are either worn out with age, or are not compatible with the Italian system. When its played properly, its actually quite entertaining. Firstly, the Italian system requires 2 elite and experienced CBs. Italy had one potentially elite CB in Chiellini (in his first international tourney) and a bunch of junk that can't crack a decent club lineup. Mistake #1. The system also requires elite wingbacks capable of running the field, creating opportunities and playing relatively error-free football. Zambrotta is not that player anymore, he is increasingly error prone. Grosso is still, but even he is 30, and time is ticking away. The mistake here is not so much fielding these two, but failing to bring in youthful depth, such as Pasqual or even De Ceglie. The next crucial piece to the Italian system is a "trequartista", essentially, a shallow-lying AM. This player is the lynchpin to the Italian attack. Totti was this player in WC2006 and has since retired from international play. There are only two players on Italy that come close to this skillset... Pirlo and Camoranesi... but they are not playmaking forwards by any means. To compensate, they tried three things, and all were terrible ideas. 1. They played Pirlo as a deep-lying midfielder, which he is not... he needs the freedom to play the whole field and unleash his great passes... essentially, he's a better Beckham. 2. They tried to play Camoranesi as a wing-forward, which he's not. 3. They made Toni the lone focal point, with the other strikers asked to play wide. The result is simply firing garbage at him expecting to turn it into gold... even midtable Serie A clubs don't pull that crap. To make matters worse, he was not sharp at all.

The Bad News: This team is at the end of its term... they are old. Cannavaro will be 36 in 2010. Zambrotta, Grosso, Pirlo, Del Piero, Toni, Camoranesi, Panucci, Ambrosini and Gattuso will all be retired or even more past their prime. As well, there are no obvious candidates to partner Chiellini at CB, to take Grosso and Zambrotta's spots at wingback, or to be that elusive trequartista. They are playing ugly football because they don't have the right players to play that system right. The forwards, while individually talented do not fit in this team.

The Good News: The bright spots of this team were primarily young. De Rossi, Chiellini, Aquilani and Cassano had decent tournaments and still have much to give. As well, if Italy replaces its moron coach, the U23 and U21 teams are loaded with excellent talent. Cannavaro might be spry enough to partner Chiellini and solve the CB problem. There are some quality unproven youngsters like Pasqual and De Ceglie to take the wingback positions, and there is a brilliant 20 year old prospect by the name of Sebastian Giovinco, who has the potential to be the next Totti. Gigi Buffon is still one of the three best keepers in the world, regardless who you ask... and goalies have a long shelf life. Also, Carvalho Amauri got his Italian passport, and at 27, is the clear replacement for Luca Toni. He is a quicker and more mobile version... and also happens to be Brazillian by birth. As well, rumblings from the Italian press say that the escape clause on Donadoni's contract will be used, and WC winning coach Marcello Lippi is eager to come back with two great assistant coaches, one rumored to be either current U21 coach Pierluigi Casiraghi or his assistant, Gianfranco Zola.

Its always darkest before the dawn, and its certainly been a black tournament for Italy.

[Pagal4321]

Luca Toni should win an Academy Award for acting after that game.

[GirlySports]

Thunderball: Boriello's HAWT

Why didn't they play him? Couldn't he have partnered Toni or even replaced him? Why did they play the "trequartista" when they had nobody to play it? Perrotta was pretty useless in that role. They should have gone to a traditional 4-4-2.

And tell me more about that Acquafresca guy!

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Thunderball: Boriello's HAWT

Why didn't they play him? Couldn't he have partnered Toni or even replaced him? Why did they play the "trequartista" when they had nobody to play it? Perrotta was pretty useless in that role. They should have gone to a traditional 4-4-2.

And tell me more about that Acquafresca guy!

I'm convinced Borriello slept with Donadoni's daughter or wife before the tournament started. I have no clue why he is the only outfielder in Italy's 23 man roster not to see the pitch. He's a little overrated because of his third place in Serie A scoring performance, but he was certainly worth the risk. Toni should have been dragged off the field at least once. Di Natale was never good, and at least this likely means the end of him. Quagliarella is young, but also overrated... but he could do with a move to a bigger club like Juve, Roma or AC Milan. Good news is Amauri will likely replace him (assuming he can play for Juventus like he did for Palermo).

Perrotta isn't even close to an AM... he's a midfield winger for Roma. Same with Camoranesi at Juve. Neither were comfortable doing it, and that was pretty clear. They should have went with a 4-4-2. Even the 4-3-3 trident wouldn't work for this type of team because of the emphasis on Toni. In fact, I would have employed the Juventus style of 4-4-2 and tried that.

That is 2 deep CBs, two hard running WBs (like Italy does), two attacking wingers, two shutdown CMs with one being capable of creativity, and two compatible forwards that play as a team. Essentially, this:
Buffon
Zambrotta-Panucci-Chiellini-Grosso
Camoranesi-De Rossi-Aquilani-Perrotta/Quagliarella
Cassano-Del Piero/Borriello

That team might have lost too, but at least they'd play real football.

As for Robert Acquafresca, he's an Inter Milan prospect... he's probably low in the pecking order for young Italian forwards after Guiseppe Rossi, Sebastian Giovinco, Alberto Paloschi, Mario Balotelli, Giampaolo Pazzini and maybe even Raffaele Palladino. He could be excellent, but time will tell.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

That is 2 deep CBs, two hard running WBs (like Italy does), two attacking wingers, two shutdown CMs with one being capable of creativity, and two compatible forwards that play as a team. Essentially, this:
Buffon
Zambrotta-Panucci-Chiellini-Grosso
Camoranesi-De Rossi-Aquilani-Perrotta/Quagliarella
Cassano-Del Piero/Borriello

I think what you are describing here is what is killing Brazil right now. They play 4-4-2 with 2 shutdown CM (Gilberto Silva and Mineiro) who the Brazillian press call "A Duo of Plodding Mediocrity".

Looks like what you describe for Aqcuafresca is pretty long odds. Would he be able to make the Olympic team? I just like his name!

You knowledge of Italian football is remarkable. I'll have to bother you more often in the future We need to have experts from all European countries in this forum!

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I think what you are describing here is what is killing Brazil right now. They play 4-4-2 with 2 shutdown CM (Gilberto Silva and Mineiro) who the Brazillian press call "A Duo of Plodding Mediocrity".

Looks like what you describe for Aqcuafresca is pretty long odds. Would he be able to make the Olympic team? I just like his name!

You knowledge of Italian football is remarkable. I'll have to bother you more often in the future We need to have experts from all European countries in this forum!

Its brutal for Brazil because its not how they play, they have an abundance of AMs like Ronaldinho, Robinho, Kaka... and a lack of real good DMs. For Italy, it would be playing to their strengths... for Brazil, the opposite.

I think Acquafresca has a good chance of being on the olympic team.

I think there's a few guys lurking around with good expertise in the other leagues. Thanks for the compliment... I probably watch Serie A and Italy's NT as much, if not more than I do the Flames.

[GirlySports]

Wow, you know you've played really boring and defensive style WHEN THE ITALIANS accuse you of it!.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/st...550386&cc=5901

Even Italians were bored to tears. Resigned to the fact their team sucked.
For the first time (ever), Italians bow out of the tournament and can't whine about injustices!

[Locke]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Wow, you know you've played really boring and defensive style WHEN THE ITALIANS accuse you of it!.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/st...550386&cc=5901

Even Italians were bored to tears. Resigned to the fact their team sucked.
For the first time (ever), Italians bow out of the tournament and can't whine about injustices!

Who are you cheering for? Werent you singing Italy's praises from day 1? I said it before and I maintain it, the Italians should really cherish that 06 cup, because they got lucky.

They were brutal the 2 tournaments before it and they were brutal in the tournament after it.

I also mentioned that the squad Italy brought to this Euro just wasnt that good. Combined with Donadoni it was a recipe for disaster.

But like Thunderball is saying, the visual difference between a 'good' Italian squad and the epic crapshow we were forced to watch for weeks isnt all that different.

With Lippi expect to see more of the same except for jerseys with different names.

Lets talk about some good teams now:

Germany vs. Turkey. As some may know, Germany has a very large Turkish population so I expect this game to be an absolute war, and hopefully the Germans dont make the mistake that the Dutch made and underestimate their opponents.

A half-strength Turkey is like a cornered animal.

My only beef with Turkey is that while their play has been entertaining and dramatic they have played with little to no discipline, and it just may cost them.

In all fairness it should have cost them already but Croatia dropped the ball. If the Germans dont come prepared to put this beast to bed they'll experience the same fate as the Croatians, the Czechs and the Dutch.

Respect your opponent.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Locke

Who are you cheering for? Werent you singing Italy's praises from day 1? I said it before and I maintain it, the Italians should really cherish that 06 cup, because they got lucky.

They were brutal the 2 tournaments before it and they were brutal in the tournament after it.

I also mentioned that the squad Italy brought to this Euro just wasnt that good. Combined with Donadoni it was a recipe for disaster.

But like Thunderball is saying, the visual difference between a 'good' Italian squad and the epic crapshow we were forced to watch for weeks isnt all that different.

All these posts and you don't know who I'm cheering for? I'm a Brazil fan so I'm not too concerned about the Euros but still enjoy the tournament. And I do like Italy because I remember some great games that they have won in the past playing nice football. Whenever they play dull, boring football they always pay for it so they should stop it!

I was saying I thought Italy would win. This was of course before Cannavaro was hurt and before I realized Donadoni had no clue. And I also said and stand by the fact that Italy beat themselves and Holland weren't that good in the first game. Holland scored on counter-attacks, yes Italy does attack or else how can you counter-attack? Holland showed that they beat 3 very weak teams in the so-called group of death and then when confronted with a good team they folded.

I will disagree with you that Italy were poor in 2002 and 2006. In 2002 they scored in every game and were a few minutes away from getting to the QF and who knows how far after that. And in 2006 they played attacking style and won, scoring 12 goals in the process. In this tournament they never replaced a player like Totti.

There is a big difference between a good Italian team and a crapshow. The Italians aren't as negative as many make them out to be (their club sides are often quite attacking), but they played to stereotype yesterday. Worse Italian performance I've ever seen. You know Italian fans can be pretty delusional and never accept that Italy lost properly (always a conspiracy) but yesterday, they were embarrassed how the team played and have nothing to say.

As you said, let the good teams continue into the semifinals.