God Hates Amputees

[Dion]

nm

[scottie]

Interesting that this discussion moved away from specifically about amputees not getting their miracles to miracles in general. I am in no doubt that God wants to and does miraculously heal. I'm seeing it every night from Florida, I see it regularly where I volunteer (Healing Rooms: see http://www.healingrooms.com/), and it happens in churches and conferences/large meetings all the time.

As to the who, the why, and the how: I don't know. God heals, not the person praying nor the person receiving. It ususally requires faith, but sometimes He just heals sovereignly. Always, though, it's to direct people back to God.

[jammies]

If God chooses to heal people thru miracles, isn't it logical to assume he is also responsible for killing people whom he DOESN'T heal? I mean, if I see someone drowning, and I stand there and do nothing but watch, that's pretty morally dubious - why does God get off with the "mysterious ways" defence? Hell, I'm not any paragon of virtue, but if *I* had the magic power to just banish disease and disfigurement, I'd be out there healing like a mofo...

Or is the explanation for evil this: God exists, and he is malevolent. Good exists because it allows destruction to be ever so much more satisfying.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by jammies

If God chooses to heal people thru miracles, isn't it logical to assume he is also responsible for killing people whom he DOESN'T heal? I mean, if I see someone drowning, and I stand there and do nothing but watch, that's pretty morally dubious - why does God get off with the "mysterious ways" defence? Hell, I'm not any paragon of virtue, but if *I* had the magic power to just banish disease and disfigurement, I'd be out there healing like a mofo...

Or is the explanation for evil this: God exists, and he is malevolent. Good exists because it allows destruction to be ever so much more satisfying.

Some people might just be done what they were here for... Perhaps the bigger issue is humans who play God prolonging what should be a quick death? Just sayin.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Some people might just be done what they were here for... Perhaps the bigger issue is humans who play God prolonging what should be a quick death? Just sayin.

Wouldn't letting people die be playing God as well?

Can't an all-powerful God can overcome a bypass operation or chemotherapy if he thinks it is time to go?

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Wouldn't letting people die be playing God as well?

Can't an all-powerful God can overcome a bypass operation or chemotherapy if he thinks it is time to go?

Yup. And people often die on the operating table.

The point I was trying to make is that allowing people to die is not a malevolent act on God's part. I wouldn't say He's 'killing' people, rather allowing them to run their life course. Some are shorter than others. Some have more pain than others. Lessons to be learned and all that jazz.

[photon]

Originally Posted by scottie

Always, though, it's to direct people back to God.

Which still raises the question that I posed earlier, if person A gets a miracle to guide them back to God, dies and goes to heaven and person B doesn't, dies and goes to hell, what's just and fair about that?

With all the stuff supposedly going on in Florida, I still would like some real evidence of healing.

[Berger_4_]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

And then his name was Bob.

Nicely done. That one took me a second.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by photon

They're out there though, here's an entire doctrine based around the question of why there are no apparent miracles today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessationism

EDIT: And it's not really about expecting or demanding a miracle, it's about being treated the same as all the other Christians. It's about having some indication that one particular religion is the right one and the rest are the wrong ones. Miracles were a huge part of winning souls in the early church weren't they?

I am a cessationist. I believe that the sign gifts ended with the completion of the scriptures and the turning away of the Nation of Israel. Prophesy, tongues and gifts of healing were all prophesied in the Old Testament to occur with the coming of the Messiah. It was a sign for the children of Israel. I've debated several Charismatics over the years and one of their weak points is history. There is no evidence of any consistent manifestations of the sign gifts within Christianity between the the first century and the twentieth century. The AZUSA STREET MISSION in the early days of the twentieth century launched the modern phenomenon. I believe the modern movement is based on false doctrines and does not represent what occurred in the first century.

[mykalberta]

Aids has been cured?

I am going to have to ask for some proof of that.

Magic and the rest of the aidsoids would love to know where to get this cure I am sure.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Aids has been cured?

I am going to have to ask for some proof of that.

Magic and the rest of the aidsoids would love to know where to get this cure I am sure.

I guess he's talking about the effective new ART treatments that could extend lifespan almost indefinitely. Still not a cure though.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I am a cessationist. I believe that the sign gifts ended with the completion of the scriptures and the turning away of the Nation of Israel. Prophesy, tongues and gifts of healing were all prophesied in the Old Testament to occur with the coming of the Messiah. It was a sign for the children of Israel. I've debated several Charismatics over the years and one of their weak points is history. There is no evidence of any consistent manifestations of the sign gifts within Christianity between the the first century and the twentieth century. The AZUSA STREET MISSION in the early days of the twentieth century launched the modern phenomenon. I believe the modern movement is based on false doctrines and does not represent what occurred in the first century.

So it's all about saying the right words? Is this magic?

[J pold]

Originally Posted by peter12

I guess he's talking about the effective new ART treatments that could extend lifespan almost indefinitely. Still not a cure though.

I think you mean ARV treatment or the Aids cocktail, hardly new though it has been around since 1995 but you are right far from a “cure”

[photon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I am a cessationist. I believe that the sign gifts ended with the completion of the scriptures and the turning away of the Nation of Israel. Prophesy, tongues and gifts of healing were all prophesied in the Old Testament to occur with the coming of the Messiah. It was a sign for the children of Israel. I've debated several Charismatics over the years and one of their weak points is history. There is no evidence of any consistent manifestations of the sign gifts within Christianity between the the first century and the twentieth century. The AZUSA STREET MISSION in the early days of the twentieth century launched the modern phenomenon. I believe the modern movement is based on false doctrines and does not represent what occurred in the first century.

I think I can honestly say you're the first one I've personally met! I didn't even know that cessationism was a doctrine until very recently, so I'm not really up on both sides of the issue.

My whole church life revolved around signs and wonders and miracles, so of course all the teaching and doctrine supported that. So digging into cessationism and how its supported scripturally is interesting.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by J pold

I think you mean ARV treatment or the Aids cocktail, hardly new though it has been around since 1995 but you are right far from a “cure”

ARTs or ARVs can basically mean the same thing. They've been around since 1995, but have are constantly undergoing a progression of effectiveness. Certainly not a cure, but a huge jump forward in lifespan for those suffering from HIV/AIDS.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by photon

I think I can honestly say you're the first one I've personally met! I didn't even know that cessationism was a doctrine until very recently, so I'm not really up on both sides of the issue.

My whole church life revolved around signs and wonders and miracles, so of course all the teaching and doctrine supported that. So digging into cessationism and how its supported scripturally is interesting.

I was once a cessationist, and a rather passionate one at that! Cessationism is a product of the same form of rationalism that wrought on the doctrine of biblical inerrency and infallibility; both were products of the Princeton theologians. To understand cessationism, one must clearly understand inerrency in terms of a doctrine designed to cope with first, the need to make rational sense of the world in a Christianized context, and second, the need conflate a rationally inspired "literalist" reading of Scripture in a world where the lame do not walk, where the sun does not stand still, where rivers and oceans do not split to reveal dry land, where city walls do not spontaneously fall down, and where the dead stay dead.

The solution was a rather simple one for the Princetonians: merely to apply a form of dispensationalism to history, and to insist that different "Ages" constituted different activity from God. One can then believe in the world-wide flood, floating axe-heads and the graffiti of Yahweh on the walls of Babylon, while still maintaining in particularly good rationalistic fashion that the world is mechanistic and predictable. Cessationists must deny any hint the sort of charismatic miraculous that an otherwise "plain reading" of the Bible would allow, because on the one hand, they wisely recognized that any vigorous test of miracles will undoubtedly fail to impress in the same manner as those of biblical proportions. Thus, on the other hand, if one were to allow even the slightest metaphoric or allusive interpretation of contemporary events to effect our perception of modern life, this leaves the untouchable biblical accounts to the same sort of allegorizing or exaggeration.

Of course, cessationism becomes something of a puzzle once one recognizes that the doctrine of inerrency is frought with problems. Most cessationists hold to a vacuous ideal in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary: that a plain and literalistic reading of the Bible does not stand well in the face of history and science.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Dion

I have yet to meet a Christian who is troubled by this. I was also once a member of organised religion and never had a problem with that either. I always felt it was wrong to expect or demand miracles.

I will say, that that website bases proof of God's existence on the belief in miracles.

I'd say that there is a growing number of non traditional religious people who believe in a god, but do not give any credence to miracles.

I remember from a young age focusing on this point with my family debates, we 7, 5 kids/2 parents sat together and debated a lot of neat topics when our family moved to Canada.

I always found Miracles flakey and hard to accept, since we are now in a modern age where media can be anywhere/anytime.. So anyone claiming a miracle will face tough scrutiny and what we've seen the last 50-100yrs is a great deal of claims, zero proof.

But the ultimate argument is that miracles do not touch people without limbs, and this is the obvious flaw in that IF you do believe in a god miracles do not make sense.. If you don't believe in a god, well obviously miracles are not real.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Yup. And people often die on the operating table.

The point I was trying to make is that allowing people to die is not a malevolent act on God's part. I wouldn't say He's 'killing' people, rather allowing them to run their life course. Some are shorter than others. Some have more pain than others. Lessons to be learned and all that jazz.

I think the bigger issue is that IF god was intervening in human life, that there is a great number of ethical and philosophical issues that really question the existence of god.

If Science prolongs life for example, and God does have a hand in our lives, shouldnt we not treat cancer, diabetes, heart disease, etc..

Ultimately like some religions, that will not allow blood transfusions and the like. If we believe our existance is the result of an all mighty, why do we mess with his plan?

Even though we are clearly aware of genetic deficiencies, mutations, and inherited diseases...

Ultimately, I must think that more and more people who believe in "A" god must deny that this being has an active role in the day to day life of humanity.

Because IF a god has a role in the day to day, there is a great deal of problems with the obvious truth to it all.