Enmax to Offer Solar Power

[ken0042]

I saw this on the news, and couldn't find a great article to quote, but basically Enmax is currently looking at leasing solar equipment to consumers. According to Global TV the cost would be around $50-80 per month and would go right onto your electricity bill. Any extra power you generate that you don't use would go back onto the grid, and then at night you would draw power back off the grid.

I think this is a great idea. Enmax gets some extra power during the day when demand is high, and customers can do something to reduce their carbon footprint.

Here's the one link I found; where they discuss the demonstration they started yesterday:
"Albertans are looking for simple and affordable ways to reduce their environmental footprint," said Gary Holden, ENMAX Energy President and CEO.
"ENMAX is leading the way in exploring new technologies in energy. These solar arrays represent a collection of the most current and effective technologies coming to market. We are evaluating their performance to identify the best
solar technologies for Alberta to make this new energy-efficient offering an easy choice for our customers and a solution for a more sustainable future."

[Incogneto]

Wow, I would go for this.

I am also interested in the Tankless water heaters. Anyone have any experience with them?

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by InCoGnEtO

I am also interested in the Tankless water heaters. Anyone have any experience with them?

My grandparents have an on-demand hot water system. It's not nearly as awesome as Mike Holmes makes them sound. Of course, I'm thinking theirs is a bit old and/or generally kind of crappy.

If you turn on the shower you're greeted with 30 seconds of icy water followed by an instant introduction to water warmed in the Fires of Hell. No in between and it's tough to find a happy temperature in between.

I have been told by friends of European descent that such hot water heaters have been in use there for a long time with little fanfare and few problems.

[Tron_fdc]

Yeah, it's called net metering. Nothing new to the power industry, but I do believe that it was just approved by the government in the last few years (could be wrong though, it's been a while since I had anything to do with the power industry). You have to have a certain type of meter to do it, so that pretty much disqualifies quite a few people (apartments, etc), but it's a step in the right direction.

Lots of interesting ideas that I've seen though. Things like solar powered cars that you charge during the day, and once they're charged they feed excess power back into the grid.

[Tron_fdc]

Oh, and as far as cost goes, you can buy equipment from Canadian tire (solar panels, even little wind generators) to do it. You can be pretty much guaranteed though that if Enmax is leasing you equipment they'll make it as hard as possible for you to make any money at all.

The theory on net metering is that with the increase in generation the demand spikes won't happen as much, and you won't see major spot price increases. Enmax was supposedly fighting net metering, as it would reduce the amount they could charge their consumers when the price shot up.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Oh, and as far as cost goes, you can buy equipment from Canadian tire (solar panels, even little wind generators) to do it.

Yes, and other companies offer them as well. I was looking at this package a while ago: http://www.solarsolutions.ca/Kits/Kit-7-Utility.html

There's a few issues though:

- Enmax wouldn't allow it before. That pretty much limited you to an off-grid solution; which I wasn't comfortable with. Last thing I want is to be working on some project and say "wait, the sun went behind a cloud. Turn off the saw."

- Cost was another biggie. Depending on what you wanted you were looking at 5, 10, or 15 thousand dollars. Assuming a $10K solution would work for you, it would take 17 years @ $50/month of electricity savings to pay for itself.

- This point goes hand in hand with the last one; emerging technology. Right now solar pannels are incredibly inefficient; something like 10-20%. A researcher in Germany believes he will have a 50-60% solar panel available within 5 years. So why spend $10K on something that will be a dinosaur in a few years. It's like the very last neighbour who bought his 15 foot satellite dish in 1995; just in time to see it go obsolete.

[Nufy]

I've always thought a hybrid solution could work.

Use a solar system for the regular non-heavy loads like lighting and small power appliances.

Use Utility power for the heavy stuff like electric stoves, washer / dryers etc...

Essentially you would have to Elec panels in your house and two receptacle systems.

Cost would be a little more on the design and installation side but may work out better than a single source solution.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by ken0042

- Enmax wouldn't allow it before.

Yeah, I figured as much. They make it next to impossible for the average consumer to do ANYTHING to reduce their power bill (besides using less). I would suppose that if you ran the numbers on this project, it's going to be as close to a break even as you can get because god forbid you affect their price gouging.

Net metering is common in the USA, as well as BC and Ontario. As far as I know, you don't have to buy (or lease) equipment from your power provider in most of the jurisdictions... you simply fill out an application and away you go. There are restrictions though (I believe it's 50KW or less?) so you don't get Joe farmer tying in a 2 MW diesel tractor engine to the grid when the price spikes.

Just another reason to hate Enmax, I guess.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by Nufy

Cost would be a little more on the design and installation side but may work out better than a single source solution.

That's kind of the problem. When you factor in the cost of setting up that kind of system, along with the savings, the payout is in the 10 year range (as Ken mentioned). The cost of power itself is just a portion of your bill these days, so if you're saving a few cents per kilowatt through the day, you're still paying those big demand charges and access fees every month, which don't change for 12 months. Meaning you can't even maximize savings for the first year.

At least that's how they work in Alberta, I'm not sure about other provinces.

[Cheese]

Just wait...they arent finished yet!
Co-Gen for everyone coming to a home near you!

Better yet...Demand Response on a much larger scale than ever, will help lessen issues on Alberta's grid system.

[FurnaceFace]

Originally Posted by InCoGnEtO

I am also interested in the Tankless water heaters. Anyone have any experience with them?

I'll let you know, we're getting an Rinnai water system and new high efficiency furnace (and electronic air filter, and humidifier) installed as I type.

The tankless systems - or the one we're getting - I believe has temp controls on it so you don't get the fires of hell heat fredr mentions. Our unit has 6 burners and depending on the load at the time it will fire off more burners as required to keep a constant temp. One thing our installer recommended is keeping the old water heater tank as a reservoir

Europe has indeed had on demand water heaters forever. Frequently they have a little heater for each bathroom/area which services just that zone.

[Slava]

I will be an early adopter if this comes available. I looked into Geo-thermal earlier this year and haven't made that commitment...yet. Anything that I can do to save energy is something that I will investigate though. I've even revived the idea of buying a motorcycle; although haven't quite advised my wife of that one yet!

[someguy51]

A co-worker told me that solar panels won't work that well in Canada because the sun's rays doesn't hit us as directly as somewhere closer to the equator. So an equivalent solar panel setup in somewhere like Texas will create a lot more energy then one in Calgary.

A little off topic, but I read on slashdot a while ago that some researchers are working on a device that you can wear that captures energy from your body. So maybe someday in the future you can keep your iPod charged just by walking to and from the bus stop! I thought that was pretty cool.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by ken0042

- Cost was another biggie. Depending on what you wanted you were looking at 5, 10, or 15 thousand dollars. Assuming a $10K solution would work for you, it would take 17 years @ $50/month of electricity savings to pay for itself.

But that's if you consider the system to hold zero asset value, i.e that the initial $20000 (a more realistic number once everything is factored in) is a sunk cost. But it's not. A house that makes it's own power is worth more than one that doesn't...it adds value.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by someguy51

A co-worker told me that solar panels won't work that well in Canada because the sun's rays doesn't hit us as directly as somewhere closer to the equator. So an equivalent solar panel setup in somewhere like Texas will create a lot more energy then one in Calgary.

They're half right. Peak solar insolation on a given surface is about 1kW/m^2. You get that 1kW when the sun is shining perpendicular to that surface. As the angle moves off perpendicular, a 1m^2 of that surface will see less than 1kW, just like if you tilt a piece of paper away from you it looks "smaller".

You get around this by setting the angle of your panels to be perpendicular to the sun's average path...or with solar trackers that control motors to angle your panels perpendicular to the sun at all times.

Now of course, in our winters we won't get 1kw/m^2 from even perfectly angled panels because the sun is so low that it's light must travel through more atmosphere to reach the panel than it does when right overhead in the summer.

[Frequitude]

You're bang on Fotze. I've run some crude numbers but they are in a log book at home. It's still on the edge of feasibility, depending on the amount of value one puts into "greenness".

I completely forgot to mention escalating electricity prices, great call. Inflation alone makes it relatively worth more and more every year. As for maintenance, there will certainly be some, but the whole system is solid state (no moving parts), so friction is not a problem (the major cause of most things breaking down).

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

but the whole system is solid state (no moving parts), so friction is not a problem (the major cause of most things breaking down).

I thought there was some sort of motor to move the panels; ie change them for winter when the sun is coming in at a different angle than in the summer.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I thought there was some sort of motor to move the panels; ie change them for winter when the sun is coming in at a different angle than in the summer.

Oh, yes indeed...if you choose to install them. They're not required though, it just means you don't track the sun and don't get peak insolation on your panels. Most rooftop systems don't track the sun, at least in California where the elevation of the sun doesn't vary as much over the year. It just means that you have to buy more panels.

Up here though, ya, it's probably best to save on panels up front, buy a tracker system, and handle the maintenance down the road.

[edn88]

I just got a letter from Enmax regarding Generate Choice - with the option to sign up for the solar equipment leasing.

Looked at the website (www.generatechoice.ca) but am still not 100% clear.

Anyone have any experience with Enmax solar leasing and can comment?