How To Repel Mormons?

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Dion

Apologies - didn't realise it was that complex.

Guess i'm looking for an understanding of how one gets into the 3 diferrent kingdoms or levels of heaven. Or more importantly why you have 3 as oppossed to one that Christianity talks about.

Let me know if my question is still too long.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.thirdheaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2Co 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
hirdheaven.

I understand Paul to be referring to the abode of God as opposed to the atmosphere or the stars and galaxies. Mormons and a few others see it as degrees of heaven.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Dion

Apologies - didn't realise it was that complex.

Guess i'm looking for an understanding of how one gets into the 3 diferrent kingdoms or levels of heaven. Or more importantly why you have 3 as oppossed to one that Christianity talks about.

Let me know if my question is still too long.

Just to clarify, Mormons are Christians as is anyone who believes in Christ.

As for your question, I will give you the readers digest version. The main idea is that each level takes you accomplishing more. For example being baptized, being married in the temple etc. It really doesn't mean there is 3 heavens just that there are different levels within heaven that you can strive to obtain.

Edit:

I understand Paul to be referring to the abode of God as opposed to the atmosphere or the stars and galaxies. Mormons and a few others see it as degrees of heaven.

Yes, God lives in the '3rd level' so those in the 3rd degree of glory get to live directly with God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

People in the second level get to be visited by Christ, and people in the first level are visited by the Holy Ghost.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Just to clarify, Mormons are Christians as is anyone who believes in Christ.

As for your question, I will give you the readers digest version. The main idea is that each level takes you accomplishing more. For example being baptized, being married in the temple etc. It really doesn't mean there is 3 heavens just that there are different levels within heaven that you can strive to obtain.

Edit:


Yes, God lives in the '3rd level' so those in the 3rd degree of glory get to live directly with God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

People in the second level get to be visited by Christ, and people in the first level are visited by the Holy Ghost.
[/size][/size]

That's a good summation and explains the futher questions as to why you believe in faith by works as opposed faith by grace. And questions about the trinity/god head - all being seperate beings.

Thanks for taking the time

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.thirdheaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2Co 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
hirdheaven.

I understand Paul to be referring to the abode of God as opposed to the atmosphere or the stars and galaxies. Mormons and a few others see it as degrees of heaven.

Thanks for your explanation too CB

[photon]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Just to clarify, Mormons are Christians as is anyone who believes in Christ.

Heh, I remember when I was a teen going to youth group and they did a whole series of videos on the Mormon "cult". I'd say pretty much every church I've ever attended preached that Mormons were a cult from the pulpit as well.

I think I remember saying something like "they probably see us as a cult" half jokingly.. that's when I learned that you didn't joke about that kind of thing in that church, I got special attention for quite a while after that

[macker]

I guess if we are tossing out questions here.....
Is there something in the book of mormom that would cause someone to believe that having multiple wives is a go? Also how are the mormon churches dealing with all the negative PR caused by Bountiful & Texas and Warren Jeff's. I guess you could argue that the other mainstream religions have lots of bad apples too but I am curious as to how one can read the book, come under the spell and convince soo many others that this is appropriate behavior in this day and age. Also thanks to the mormons on CP that are willing to enlighten the thread with some info from the front lines!

[Azure]

Originally Posted by photon

Heh, I remember when I was a teen going to youth group and they did a whole series of videos on the Mormon "cult". I'd say pretty much every church I've ever attended preached that Mormons were a cult from the pulpit as well.

I think I remember saying something like "they probably see us as a cult" half jokingly.. that's when I learned that you didn't joke about that kind of thing in that church, I got special attention for quite a while after that

Yeah, I get that a lot too.

Apparently some 'Christians' love calling every other 'belief' a cult. Gotta love their arrogance.

Who are we to judge? Believe what you want....and I'll respect that. No reason to go around telling Mormons they're a cult.

[photon]

Except Scientology, I won't respect that

Polygamy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygam...undamentalists

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

Except Scientology, I won't respect that

Polygamy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygam...undamentalists

Scientology....scam, cult or religion?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by photon

Except Scientology, I won't respect that

Polygamy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygam...undamentalists

Yeah....I can see your point there.

Anything that Tom Cruise agrees with has got to be screwed up.

[photon]

All three, with a nice overlying theme of evil.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Azure

Yeah....I can see your point there.

Anything that Tom Cruise agrees with has got to be screwed up.

[eddly]

Originally Posted by macker

I guess if we are tossing out questions here.....
Is there something in the book of mormom that would cause someone to believe that having multiple wives is a go? Also how are the mormon churches dealing with all the negative PR caused by Bountiful & Texas and Warren Jeff's. I guess you could argue that the other mainstream religions have lots of bad apples too but I am curious as to how one can read the book, come under the spell and convince soo many others that this is appropriate behavior in this day and age. Also thanks to the mormons on CP that are willing to enlighten the thread with some info from the front lines!

In the Book of Mormon, there is a book called Jacob that briefly mentions it, albeit not supporting it.

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. 25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph. 26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old. 27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none; 28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts. 29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes. Jac. 2:24-29

It was later in the Doctrine and Covenants that the issue of polygamy was addressed further. I won't comment on it much further as I couldn't give an objective point of view regarding it. I don't support it at all.

Also in regards to calling Mormonism a cult, well I can't really disagree. Look up the definition for it. Basically a cult refers to a devout group of people following a charismatic leader. That could refer to anything from a group following Jesus Christ to a group following Jim Jones.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by macker

I guess if we are tossing out questions here.....
Is there something in the book of mormom that would cause someone to believe that having multiple wives is a go? Also how are the mormon churches dealing with all the negative PR caused by Bountiful & Texas and Warren Jeff's. I guess you could argue that the other mainstream religions have lots of bad apples too but I am curious as to how one can read the book, come under the spell and convince soo many others that this is appropriate behavior in this day and age. Also thanks to the mormons on CP that are willing to enlighten the thread with some info from the front lines!

I am terrible with scripture, but I don't think there is an incident of plural marriage in the Book of Mormon. To explain why it was adopted by early LDS was there were many righteous sisters who were without husbands to care for them, partially through death from the mobs who drove them from pretty much every place they lived before the Salt Lake Valley and partiall y because less men were converted in the early days. To help care for these women, they were assigned to the care of men who had the means to support them and their children.

Once Polygamy was declared illegal in the US the Church stopped performing plural marriages as part of normal course of action. Then later on the Church excommunicated anyone who still insisted on having multiple wives.

So to answer your question, the people in Bountiful and the Warren Jeff people are not Mormons. They may have been at one time, and if they were, they were probably kicked out of the church for thier beliefs. I don't deal with any fallout from them because they are not part of our Church. For someone to complain to Mormons about this stuff in Bountiful is does not even make anywhere close to as much sense as someone complaining to England because Canada legalized gay marriage. There is far more connection between the laws we pass and England than there is between Bountiful peeps and Mormons.

[eddly]

Here is the scripture in the Doctorine and Covenants that talks about polygamy.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132

edit: or not, I guess links don't here.

You can just google 'doctorine and covenants 132'

[eddly]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I am terrible with scripture, but I don't think there is an incident of plural marriage in the Book of Mormon. To explain why it was adopted by early LDS was there were many righteous sisters who were without husbands to care for them, partially through death from the mobs who drove them from pretty much every place they lived before the Salt Lake Valley and partiall y because less men were converted in the early days. To help care for these women, they were assigned to the care of men who had the means to support them and their children.

This is what I was told growing up as well, but it isn't quite true. Some of the prophets and apostles were married to women who already had living husbands. This issue led to Parley P. Pratt's death as the husband of one of Pratt's new wives was not that pleased that he had taken his wife. Info like this can be easily found on wiki and other reputable sites.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Just to clarify, Mormons are Christians as is anyone who believes in Christ.

Mormons will tell you that they believe in the same Christ that other Christians do, however I don't believe that is the case. From what I understand Mormons believe that Jesus was a good man who was perfect or as near to perfect as you can get. Christians believe that Jesus was the not only the son of God but God himself. The trinity of God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit, is the same. Mormon's don't believe in the trinity.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Buff

Mormons will tell you that they believe in the same Christ that other Christians do, however I don't believe that is the case. From what I understand Mormons believe that Jesus was a good man who was perfect or as near to perfect as you can get. Christians believe that Jesus was the not only the son of God but God himself. The trinity of God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit, is the same. Mormon's don't believe in the trinity.

I would say that Mormons, mainstream and evangelical Christians have a different perception of the same Jesus. We're not talking about two seperate individuals here; insisting as much is an evangelical apologetic tactic to make one think that anything non-evangelical is diametrically opposite, and that is just not the case. Different perceptions. Not a "different Jesus".

[Buff]

While Christians and Mormons believe in the same person, their views of Jesus are different enough to make him different.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Buff

Mormons will tell you that they believe in the same Christ that other Christians do, however I don't believe that is the case. From what I understand Mormons believe that Jesus was a good man who was perfect or as near to perfect as you can get. Christians believe that Jesus was the not only the son of God but God himself. The trinity of God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit, is the same. Mormon's don't believe in the trinity.

Do all Christians (or self-described Christians) believe in this Holy Trinity?

From my seat on the sidelines it always looked to me that Christians of every denomination believe different things, hence the arguing and stuff like Al Sharpton comments about Mormons, non-Catholic badmouthing of the Pope, Protestant/Catholic infighting, seemingly random persecutions of different sects, modern evangelicals and their beliefs that don't mesh with other mainstream churches and on and on and on.