US Customs Can Search Your Electronics

[Locke]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I guess I alsways figured that they always had the right to do this. That's why all my sensitive stuff gets put into a zip folder, and renamed whatever.log

Rename it back to .zip and then open it when I get where I'm going. But mainly to avoid embarrasment at the airport than anything else.

I think my biggest issue is that they make copies of it and then send you on your way. I used to use my laptop to store tax files that I would work on at home, where does a foreign Government get the right to have those files at their leisure?

If the RCMP wants my files they need a court order, but because I crossed a border they have the rights to them?

I dont see it. Especially because they literally could copy the entire drive and have a room full of peons sift through it until the end of time for no discernable purpose with no guarantees of any sort of confidentiality.

They could just sell the info to cover budget deficits.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Locke

I think my biggest issue is that they make copies of it and then send you on your way. I used to use my laptop to store tax files that I would work on at home, where does a foreign Government get the right to have those files at their leisure?

If the RCMP wants my files they need a court order, but because I crossed a border they have the rights to them?

I dont see it. Especially because they literally could copy the entire drive and have a room full of peons sift through it until the end of time for no discernable purpose with no guarantees of any sort of confidentiality.

They could just sell the info to cover budget deficits.

again, they have no right nor ability to break encrypted files

[PowerPlayoffs06]

Obviously the state sees it as an electronic luggage check.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/07/us...=1&oref=slogin

The search was not unusual: the government contends that it is perfectly free to inspect every laptop that enters the country, whether or not there is anything suspicious about the computer or its owner. Rummaging through a computer’s hard drive, the government says, is no different than looking through a suitcase.

At least one judge, apparently the man who made an initial ruling which as now been overturned, thinks otherwise.

“Electronic storage devices function as an extension of our own memory,” Judge Pregerson wrote, in explaining why the government should not be allowed to inspect them without cause. “They are capable of storing our thoughts, ranging from the most whimsical to the most profound.”


Computer hard drives can include, Judge Pregerson continued, diaries, letters, medical information, financial records, trade secrets, attorney-client materials and — the clincher, of course — information about reporters’ “confidential sources and story leads.”

The article is pretty interesting and gets a lot of different views, like one from a business group who says that the government could potentially copy everything going through the boarder if it wanted to, which amounts to electronic surveillance.

It also goes on to talk about a different case of a Canadian living in the States who had his laptop seized when child pornography was found on it after he helped a boarder guard open an encrypted file. Later, officials couldn't reopen the encrypted file and ordered the guy to provide the passwords, but the subpoena was quashed under the 5th amendment.

Originally Posted by onetwo_threefour

Not to be an apologist for Big Brother, but when you are travelling across country borders, you are an alien to at least one of the countries you are dealing with and can't really expect them to afford you all of the same protections as a citizen. I think privacy rights are important in a free and democratic society, but international security and the need to stop cross-border trafficking of dangerous substances should trump privacy I think. Only an idiot would transport illegal substances across an international border.

Originally Posted by mykalberta

+1 Totally agree, while crossing the border you dont deserve the same rights as someone already legally in the country.

You guys do realize that this applies to anybody crossing the border? American citizens who are "already legally in the country" are subject to search too.

What kind of dangerous substances are you going to get from an electronic file off a cell phone or laptop? The only thing I can think of is finding child porn. You can't traffic drugs or weapons on a hard drive. If that's your reasoning, I assume you'd be a-okay with whimsical strip and cavity searches because there's actually a chance you'll find some dangerous substances there.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

again, they have no right nor ability to break encrypted files

My guess is that if a border guard is searching through your computer and says "what's the password for this encrypted file?" and you say "I'm not telling you", he's not just going to close it up and send you on your way.

He may not be able to get at those files, but I'm sure he's authorized to hang on to your laptop for "safe keeping".

And does that Constitutional stuff even apply to Canadians? I really don't know, but I doubt it.

[photon]

That's why you use trucrypt and the hidden encrypted drive.. then you can give the password to the meaningless files, and the other stuff stays hidden.. And they have no way of knowing that the other part of the encrypted part is really encrypted data instead of random bits.

[icarus]

I am glad Air Canada has non-stop flights between Sydney and Vancouver now. Having to go through US customs and immigration for a 40 minute stopover in Hawaii was brutal. Thank God I don't have to worry about them going through my computer and stealing all my internets anymore. They always asked more questions than either the Canadians or Australians (although last time I entered Canada they asked me as many questions as any US official ever has).

[Cube Inmate]

When driving across the border, you're already on US territory by the time you get interviewed by the American border guards. As a result, US law applies and I suspect that you'd have very little recourse if they decided to confiscate your property on whatever BS suspicion they wanted.

What about when doing the US pre-clearance in a Canadian airport? Suppose you don't like the questions they're asking you at the immigration or security stations...do you have the right to simply say, "screw you...I'll just stay in Canada" ??

Just wondering.

[TheCommodoreAfro]

This is why I booked my flight home through Vancouver, instead of saving me a little bit of money and flying through Seattle when I come back for a couple of weeks in September. I actually had two travel different agents here in Japan actually say to me "you just don't even want to look at transits through the US anymore -they're getting ridiculous". And how right they were.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by photon

That's why you use trucrypt and the hidden encrypted drive.. then you can give the password to the meaningless files, and the other stuff stays hidden.. And they have no way of knowing that the other part of the encrypted part is really encrypted data instead of random bits.

Yeah, but that all sounds like a double-secret no-returnsies kind of thing to me. I don't have a clue about that stuff and a lot of people would consider me a computer expert because I know how to watch a movie that won't be released until Friday.

The way I read it explained (though I don't believe) is that this is nothing different than going through a suitcase at customs. Going with that, encrypting files seems like a secret compartment in your suitcase. You are good to go if they don't find it, but maybe not so good to go if they do.

[Locke]

Dont forget, they are making copies of all your files that they get to keep.

Who knows what happens after that.

[photon]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Going with that, encrypting files seems like a secret compartment in your suitcase. You are good to go if they don't find it, but maybe not so good to go if they do.

Very true, that's where the steganography comes in.

So you've got your secret compartment in your suitcase (though maybe a better analogy is a locked compartment, it doesn't have to be secret at all in fact it's probably better if it isn't). You do have a legit reason to have that locked compartment; you have private files, work documents, etc that you don't want readable if you lose or someone happens to steal your laptop.

They search your laptop, find this file, and ask you to enter your password to unlock it so they can do what they want. If they really want to see my taxes and my pr0n collection, fine, I unlock it.

Now inside this locked compartment there's ANOTHER locked compartment, and this one IS secret. There's no way of detecting it though; it just appears as free space on the drive. If you do a statistical analysis of encrypted data, you'll see structure. If you do a statistical analysis of the hidden compartment though, you'll just see random noise, same as if you'd analyzed unused space on your hard drive.

And accessing that secret compartment is identical to accessing the locked one; but instead of entering "secretpassword", you enter "reallysecretpassword". They can't know it's there, so they can't compel you to produce the extra password that for all they know doesn't exist.

[onetwo_threefour]

Originally Posted by PowerPlayoffs06

You guys do realize that this applies to anybody crossing the border? American citizens who are "already legally in the country" are subject to search too.

What kind of dangerous substances are you going to get from an electronic file off a cell phone or laptop? The only thing I can think of is finding child porn. You can't traffic drugs or weapons on a hard drive. If that's your reasoning, I assume you'd be a-okay with whimsical strip and cavity searches because there's actually a chance you'll find some dangerous substances there.

I could think of say plots to blow things up, instructions for one criminal organization to another. (i.e Hell's Angels cross-border), and of course child-porn. All of which I would consider dangerous. And if you're already an American citizen, you are supposed to be aware of your country's laws. If you choose to ignore the fact that your country has the right to search your laptop and keep sensitive materials on it when crossing borders, that is your judgment call. You could very easily back up your sensitive materials to offline storage and restore it once you have finished travelling.

There has to be a line drawn on both privacy rights and the governments ability to invade privacy. Frankly, I'm pretty okay with where the line is drawn here. The only situations that cause me concerns are the confidential media source and solicitor-client materials. Both situations are highly politically charged and I believe that intenational law does respect solicitor client privilege as a fundamental legal right. Maybe us lawyers and journalists have to pull out the old cold war spycraft and start using microdots....

[driveway]

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by onetwo_threefour

I could think of say plots to blow things up, instructions for one criminal organization to another. (i.e Hell's Angels cross-border), and of course child-porn. All of which I would consider dangerous.

All that stuff is going to go on whether they are searching laptops at the airport or not. They aren't going to stop anything. It's just another level of useless security that doesn't actually secure anything, invades privacy, costs a lot of money, and inconveniences people all at the same time. For what? Nothing. Or at least next to nothing.

There are a million ways to get around this kind of "security", and I don't even mean with encryption devices or anything like that. Like someone else said -- "have they not heard of the internet"? You don't need your files to even be stored on your computer. You can get to them anywhere if you have the slightest lick of sense.

[onetwo_threefour]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

All that stuff is going to go on whether they are searching laptops at the airport or not. They aren't going to stop anything. It's just another level of useless security that doesn't actually secure anything, invades privacy, costs a lot of money, and inconveniences people all at the same time. For what? Nothing. Or at least next to nothing.

There are a million ways to get around this kind of "security", and I don't even mean with encryption devices or anything like that. Like someone else said -- "have they not heard of the internet"? You don't need your files to even be stored on your computer. You can get to them anywhere if you have the slightest lick of sense.

Sure, as I said above, only an idiot gets caught with stuff on his laptop. But if you are a terrorist, and know that the US Government can theoreticaly open any email and intercept any data stream you choose to send over the Net, do you perhaps think that snaking in your plots on a laptop are no more risky? Same goes for child porn. You might not be willing to transmit that stuff, but if you've got a little flash drive in your pocket, you might think it's safe to carry it around with you.

I do tend to agree that it is probably pointless for them to search these things in the long run, but what are the chances they are actually searching without some level of concern about the guy who's carrying the laptop? (And by that I 'hope' I don't mean that the colour of his skin is their trigger.)

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by llama64

Hm. This image makes me want to destroy all you western scum.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Teh_Bandwagoner

Hm. This image makes me want to destroy all you western scum.

ROFL,

Lolcats: The last straw.