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Old 04-24-2008, 04:09 PM   #81
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The phone companies are going to make a killing off of accidental long distance wrong number calls. What's the length of time you need to be connected to be charged for one minute?
I'm not sure how you can accidentially get chaged for a long distance call.
If you don't dial "1" and it would be long distance, then it won't go through.
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Old 04-24-2008, 04:12 PM   #82
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I dial a lot of 780 numbers from here in Calgary, so for me it is less of an inconveneince to know all new numbers are 587 than it is to change all of those 780 numbers
That sounds like a good way for you to sort it out; for now.

What happens 3 years from now when it is less clear if a number is new or old? Or by that point you have picked up some new clients (assuming you are in business) and you don't know how long they have had their phone.
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Old 04-24-2008, 04:13 PM   #83
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I'm not sure how you can accidentially get chaged for a long distance call.
If you don't dial "1" and it would be long distance, then it won't go through.
All my phone numbers are stored as +1-403-XXX-YYYY..
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Old 04-24-2008, 04:15 PM   #84
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That sounds like a good way for you to sort it out; for now.

What happens 3 years from now when it is less clear if a number is new or old? Or by that point you have picked up some new clients (assuming you are in business) and you don't know how long they have had their phone.

Well we'd have gone to 10 digit dialing anyway, so they'll be telling me if it's 780 of 587 anyway.
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Old 04-24-2008, 04:17 PM   #85
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All my phone numbers are stored as +1-403-XXX-YYYY..

Fair enough, and so are mine, but really, how ofter are people making calls to numbers that are stored in their phone and they don't know where they are?

Presumably if you need a number often enough that it's stored in your phone, you know where it is that you are calling.

And if it is a new number, try dialing it without the 1 and if it goes though, great, if not, you'll know it's long distance.
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Old 04-24-2008, 04:36 PM   #86
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On my cell, if I dial a 10 digit number and it's long distance, I just get the spiel "you have dialed a number to which long distance charges apply", and I get connected. If it isn't long distance, I just get connected. So I am not seeing this "problem" with LD charges that people are complaining about, just dial 10 digits and don't worry about it.

If your network doesn't do this already (I have a Bell and a Telus phone and they both do it) then either bitch and moan to your provider, or change to one that isn't stuck in the 90's. End of problem.

PS - ie, all your numbers should be saved as 10 digits - no "1" in front. The phone system is smart enough to do all the work for you.
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Old 04-24-2008, 04:49 PM   #87
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PS - ie, all your numbers should be saved as 10 digits - no "1" in front. The phone system is smart enough to do all the work for you.
When you are overseas or call overseas numbers you learn to put +1 or +62 or +36 in front of numbers
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Old 04-24-2008, 05:39 PM   #88
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Okay, bye (or is that see you again a bit later).
It's not a defense of the telecom industry it's being annoyed by people who assume they know better than people who's job it is to make decisons like this.

Screw trying to understand why these decisions are made, let's just complain.

Is the new system perfect?
Probably not, but for the most part the problems spring from minor inconvenineces to people when it comes to remembering numbers or having to wrap their heads around having to know where they are calling.
That inconveninece compared to changing a few million phone numbers that are connected to a lot of things these days, that ALL have to be changed.

I dial a lot of 780 numbers from here in Calgary, so for me it is less of an inconveneince to know all new numbers are 587 than it is to change all of those 780 numbers, and I'm just one person that won't be burdended financially by this. What about everyone else and any company that has any sort of financial interest in keeping their number the same.

If they didn't do it this way, I'll bet you'd be complaining about how the average business man is being screwed over and forced to cover the cost of chaning that stuff.
Or better yet, what if the government put up the cash to help them pay for it, then I'm sure you'd be ready with a "My tax dollars" arguement.
I can't believe that you're writing off this argument as a complaint about tax dollars or the extra work of remembering. What's being created here is a big cluster######. Random area codes all over Alberta. If that makes good sense to you, then move to the states and remember that there are 12 inches in a foot. There is no logic behind it, but good on ya for denying that there is a more logical way of doling out area codes and phone numbers.

And don't put words in my mouth about businessmen being screwed over or government subsidies. I've never complained about that. You're just sad that the rest of the people in this thread realize that it's ######ed to give a blanket area code and you can't figure out why.
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Old 04-24-2008, 07:22 PM   #89
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Ease up on the condescending tone, dude. All I'm saying is that with the millions of calls made everyday, it'd be a heck of alot easier to KNOW that the number you're calling is long distance, based on "area" code.
Except that that is not feasable. Calling Carstairs from Calgary is a local call, iirc. However, Calgary to Olds is long distance. But, Carstairs to Olds is local. So how do you assign an area code that delineates what is the local calling area?

Area codes still cover geographical areas, they just got bigger than they used to be. The idea behind using an overlay and ten digit dialing makes perfect sense - why make people spend millions of dollars changing everything they have that indicates their phone number because their area code got split?

What does not make sense to me is the fact that Alberta actually has two new area codes reserved - 587 and 825. Why use one, and overlay it across the entire province, leaving the other dormant rather than implementing both, and overlaying one of those area codes with 403, and the other with 780? Then you at least maintain the rough geographical boundary that exists today.

OTOH, If you move from Calgary to Edmonton, you can keep your phone number, which is mighty convenient.

Tempest in a teapot, imo. We'll get used to it by September, and the world won't end as some fear.
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Old 04-24-2008, 07:42 PM   #90
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Your all wrong!

Clearly the best solution would be to go back to when we had operators that connected our calls by moving cables on a giant switch board.
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Old 04-24-2008, 10:02 PM   #91
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I can't believe that you're writing off this argument as a complaint about tax dollars or the extra work of remembering. What's being created here is a big cluster######. Random area codes all over Alberta. If that makes good sense to you, then move to the states and remember that there are 12 inches in a foot. There is no logic behind it, but good on ya for denying that there is a more logical way of doling out area codes and phone numbers.

And don't put words in my mouth about businessmen being screwed over or government subsidies. I've never complained about that. You're just sad that the rest of the people in this thread realize that it's ######ed to give a blanket area code and you can't figure out why.
A more logical way of doling out area codes?
Probably if you think that the minor inconvenience of having to know remember 10 digits is a bigger problem than the cost and effort required to change a few million phone numbers.

Besides, I thoght you said you were done?
What happened to that shiny thing?
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:57 AM   #92
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Your all wrong!

Clearly the best solution would be to go back to when we had operators that connected our calls by moving cables on a giant switch board.
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Old 04-25-2008, 06:27 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by kermitology View Post
When you are overseas or call overseas numbers you learn to put +1 or +62 or +36 in front of numbers
Sorry, I don't get this. Is there some other 403-555-5555 number on the planet I'm going to be calling while I'm in China getting a replacement liver from some "volunteer donator"?

Get a phone with the "Dial 1 + Number" feature on it if you need it in your gallumphing about the planet. Point is, if your phone is set up right, you're never going to make a long distance call to a local number. For that matter, I'm pretty sure if you TRY to dial a long distance call to a number that is local, the bitchy computerized Telus/Bell voice comes on the line and more or less lectures you on being a doofus, anyway, and doesn't put your call thru.

I know I used to get lectured by that voice quite a bit before I figured out that I shouldn't put the "1" in there (because I drive around the province and BC for work quite a bit, and thus am sometimes local to the numbers I have in my address book and sometimes not).

Of course, now some Luddite going to come on here and talk about his/her landline being a different story. To that person I say pre-emptively: "Hello, 1998! Show's over, time to pack it up!"
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Old 04-26-2008, 10:06 AM   #94
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jammies.. You need to actually try these things before you speak a lack of truth. Dailing 1-403-567-8910 works just fine.

All I argue is that we shouldn't be charged long distance fees within the same country.
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Old 04-26-2008, 10:06 AM   #95
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So when I return back to calgary from traveling asia next year, and I will have to get 587#'s, are all my 403 calgary friends going to have to pay long distance to call me? Or vice versa? Help a displaced calgarian out.
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Old 04-26-2008, 04:00 PM   #96
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So when I return back to calgary from traveling asia next year, and I will have to get 587#'s, are all my 403 calgary friends going to have to pay long distance to call me? Or vice versa? Help a displaced calgarian out.

not if you are within calgary no.
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Old 04-26-2008, 09:00 PM   #97
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jammies.. You need to actually try these things before you speak a lack of truth. Dailing 1-403-567-8910 works just fine.

All I argue is that we shouldn't be charged long distance fees within the same country.
I think we are disconnected here on some fundamental level. I was responding originally to the people who were worried that they were going to get charged long distance rates for calling people who weren't long distance because it would be impossible to know anymore. To that end, I explained that if you program your phone to use the area code - ie, 10 digit dialing - the network will automatically KNOW whether or not it is long distance and you will get connected to your party at the applicable rate, whether that is long distance or local. I HAVE tried this, I do it probably 15-20 times a day as I am on my cellphone for business that much, to people all over Alberta, BC, and the rest of Canada.

You then told me that if you travelled overseas, you'd learn to put the 1 digit or 63 or whatever else was appropriate in front - and I am still not understanding why you need to do this, or how it is relevant to the original "problem" which was local calls being charged as long distance. I am not saying you are wrong, I am just saying I don't understand why you need to do this or why it is relevant to the original question. If you could explain, perhaps my confusion could be resolved.
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Old 04-30-2008, 06:26 PM   #98
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OK, there is a *LOT* of misinformation in this thread which needs some clearing up.

I'll state right off the bat that I'm in favour of the current 587 distributed overlay plan. I'll also state that I'm no fan of Telus - see my website http://www.telussucks.info for more.

Let's see... where should I begin?

OK, let's start with the "ambiguity argument": the notion that it becomes impossible to know whether a call you're about to place is local or LD because 587 will cover the entire province.

As has been pointed out before, this was also true prior to 1998 and is still true in places like Saskatchewan and Manitoba, where a single area code covers the entire province. It wasn't an issue then, why is it an issue now? Even today, 403 means "somewhere in southern Alberta" and 780 means "somewhere in northern Alberta" but doesn't tell you if it's close enough to be considered local. Area codes were never envisioned to give you that type of information and RARELY do, except in cases of extremely high population density, ie: 416 & 647 in Toronto, 404/770/678 in Atlanta, and so forth.

I think, though, that there's a basic misconception about how 587 numbers are to be assigned that has led to this argument being made.

Someone has mentioned that you could get a 587 number in Edmonton, then move to Calgary and take that number with you. This is false and it comes from a misunderstanding of how a distributed overlay works.

Let's say you live in Bowness, and your phone number starts with 288 - or rather, 403-288. If you decide to move anywhere else within the Calgary ratecentre, you can take that number with you - this is what's called "Local Number Portability". But you *MUST* stay in the Calgary ratecentre to do this. If you move to Airdrie or Edmonton, tough beans: it's time for a new number.

Now, let's fast forward a year. Same situation: you live in Bowness, but instead of a 403-288 number, you have a 587-610 number (587-610 has already been assigned to the Bowness switch). Again, you decide to move. So long as you stay in the Calgary ratecentre, that number can move with you - but *NOT* if you move to Airdrie or Edmonton. In the latter case, you may get another 587 number, but it will not start with 587-610, which "homes" to the Bowness (Calgary) switch.

587 numbers will be no more, and no less, portable than 403 or 780 numbers. To get your head around this, think of the "area code" not as an area code but rather a three-digit extension of the central office code (or the traditional first three digits of a 7-digit telephone number). Instead of thinking of that Bowness number as "288", think of it as "403-288".

And that brings me back to the "ambiguity argument" that I started off with: the first time you see a number starting with 587-610, you might not know where it is or whether it's local. But once you learn it's a Calgary number, you can rest assured that *EVERY* other 587-610 number is also a Calgary number - there is no ambiguity.


Someone else, in talking about the justification (or lack thereof) of long distance rates, said something to the effect that if you're in Lethbridge and you make a call to the other side of Lethbridge, that call will likely route through Calgary but still be billed locally. That's *RARELY* true and certainly is not the telco's preferred routing method. Each switch in Lethbridge is connected to every other Lethbridge switch by a tandem and routing to Calgary would usually only occur if there is a problem with that tandem (and a shorter route cannot be found). Not sure where this came from. This *MAY* happen more frequently with some of the CLEC phone operators (ie: non-Telus, in Alberta) because of a lack of facilities, but it's still "not the norm".


I've seen several proposals that we further split 403 and 780. One proposal called for 403 to shrink to "just Calgary" and 780 to "just Edmonton", with 587 then being forced upon the rural customers either in the entire province, or in just one half of the province (with another new area code used for the other half).

This is utterly ludicrous.

OK, let's start with the sheer selfishness of the proposal(s). I've noticed that every single time I've seen someone argue in favour of a split, as opposed to an overlay, they *ALWAYS* propose that the portion of the area code IN WHICH THEY LIVE keeps the old code, while the poor buggers on the other side of the boundary are the ones who get saddled with the new area code (and get to reprint their stationery, repaint their signs, reprogram their cellphones, and so on). Why aren't you arguing that Calgary switch to 587 while the rest of southern Alberta keeps 403?

But leaving that aside, the proposal is ludicrous on a far more fundamental level: such a plan would gain us *ONLY* about 3 to 6 years before we'd be right back to where we started: running out of phone numbers in Calgary and Edmonton (while the rural areas would have a supply of phone numbers large enough to last about a century).

If you shrink 403 to include only Calgary and its extended calling area, you reclaim *ONLY* about 140 central office codes. We'll burn through those in about 3-4 years. *ALL* of the other 403 codes are in Calgary and surrounding area - that's where the growth is happening, not in Coutts or Beiseker or Coronation.

If you go further and shrink 403 to *JUST* the Calgary ratecentre, you net another 40 or so central office codes, good for another 1-2 years. Plus, you then get the fun situation where all the local-to-Calgary numbers outside of Calgary (Airdrie, Okotoks, etc.) are in a different area code, and thus we wind up with a bizarre hodge-podge of 7-digit dialing and 10-digit dialing depending on where you're calling. This will cause far more customer confusion than the 587 overlay plan does, and for little net benefit. And, when 403 runs out again, what do we do? Split Calgary down the middle, using Centre Street and Macleod Trail as the boundary? That brings us mandatory 10-digit dialing as well and seriously upsets everyone on the "wrong" side of the boundary who, again, has to change stationery, reprogram cell phones, and the like. Why not just leave everyone's phone numbers the heck ALONE?

While the numbers are slightly different up north, the situation generally is the same: shrinking 780 to Edmonton-and-area, or Edmonton alone, doesn't stave this problem off for very long.

One person mentioned that it would have been better for each of the existing area codes to get their own separate area code overlays. This was, in fact, an idea given very serious consideration - the proposal was to overlay 780 with 587, and 403 with 825. They opted instead to go with the distributed overlay, using 587 over the entire province and keeping 825 in reserve for the next overlay, probably due in about 10 years.

Why? Because it's part of an overall North-America-wide plan to make more efficient use of area codes - they'd like to stave off the eventual depletion of available area codes (currently projected in 2030) for as long as possible. Distributing overlays over entire provinces and states makes far more effective and efficient use of those area codes and all of us on this continent benefit. Indeed, the most efficient use possible would be to overlay the entire continent with new area codes each time we run out, but people still want area codes to indicate smaller geographic areas, so we compromise.

As for when we do run out of area codes, some here have mentioned that we'll move to 13-digit dialing. This isn't actually correct, unless you count the leading "1" that you dial on long-distance calls. Current proposals call for adding either 1 or 2 digits to existing numbers to facilitate expansion of the current numbering plan, bringing us from 10-digit numbers to either 11 or 12. There's about half a dozen competing plans, each with its own strengths and weaknesses: none has been formally adopted as of yet.


At least one person remarked that you can program your cellphone contacts as 10-digit numbers, and that if you call a 10-digit number that happens to be a long distance number, a recording comes on telling you that this call will be charged as long distance and then your call goes through. This does indeed work with some carriers (Bell, for example), but *NOT* all of them. Virgin Mobile, which operates on the Bell network, prohibits this: your 10-digit call will *NOT* go through if it's long distance. Personally, I program all my numbers as 11-digits with the leading "1" - all calls go through no matter where the called-party is or where I am.


Finally, as to whether or not calls within an area code, or a province, should be "local" and not long distance, well, this isn't germane to this argument at all. Long-distance versus local calling boundaries has absolutely nothing to do with area code boundaries - just ask the good folks up in Lloydminster. It's an entirely different debate - and probably a good one to have. It just doesn't have anything to do with this overlay discussion. I'll add this: if you want all your calls within North America to be considered "local", simply sign up with Shaw's Home Phone service. There's competition in the local phone service marketplace: vote with your wallet.



I hope this has cleared up some of the confusion and misconceptions about the new 587 area code. If not, feel free to respond here, and/or visit:

http://www.dial10.ca
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Old 04-30-2008, 06:45 PM   #99
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Wow, great post...thanks for the info.

After reading all the great info posted here and re-thinking my own stance, (now ridiculous in my own mind), I now accept our 587 overlords with open arms.

Really good discussion.
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Old 04-30-2008, 06:47 PM   #100
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So... How long until NA runs out of area codes? If Alberta is scooping 3 of 999, I'd imagine that the well will be running dry pretty soon. And when that happens, what will be the next stage in telephone number evolution?
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