Small Claims Court - Vehicle Sale

[Clever_Iggy]

CPers -

So my brother had been driving an old truck for about 2-3 years but decided to sell it last week. He ended up finding a buyer and sold it for $600. Just a couple days later, the timing belt went on the truck and now the buyer is harassing him to give 1/2 the money back or he's going to take my brother to small claims court.

Does my brother have anything to worry about? There was no fraud as it was honestly just bad timing and the truck itself was quite old. I want to tell him that it's a pretty obvious case of "buyer beware" but I want to be confident in doing so. Is there something specific I can cite to him?

One last issue, is that he left his bill of sale in the truck after he sold it, so the buyer has both copies. I doubt this matters, but I wanted to make sure I included all the pertinent information for you guys' advice.

Thanks

C_I

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

CPers -

So my brother had been driving an old truck for about 2-3 years but decided to sell it last week. He ended up finding a buyer and sold it for $600. Just a couple days later, the timing belt went on the truck and now the buyer is harassing him to give 1/2 the money back or he's going to take my brother to small claims court.

Does my brother have anything to worry about? There was no fraud as it was honestly just bad timing and the truck itself was quite old. I want to tell him that it's a pretty obvious case of "buyer beware" but I want to be confident in doing so. Is there something specific I can cite to him?

One last issue, is that he left his bill of sale in the truck after he sold it, so the buyer has both copies. I doubt this matters, but I wanted to make sure I included all the pertinent information for you guys' advice.

Thanks

C_I

Leaving the bill of sale in the truck is definitely not an issue. A piece of paper in any kind of K is nothing more than a representation of the actual deal and not crucial to the deal itself.

I know there are "car inspectors" available and I'm pretty sure it is the buyers duty to get one.

Whether or not this is a problem may depend on any actual warranties made to the buyer.

Keep in mind the truck might still have value even though it is not working. What is the price of repair of the broken part?

[Ice]

Aren't used vehicles sold "as is" in Canada?

If you're getting a truck for 600 bucks, you should understand that you're probably getting a very used vehicle and things go wrong with them.

[Flames_Gimp]

tell the guy to F off... no way he takes it to court..the retainer and filing for court alone costs more than the $600 ...

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by blankall

Leaving the bill of sale in the truck is definitely not an issue. A piece of paper in any kind of K is nothing more than a representation of the actual deal and not crucial to the deal itself.

I know there are "car inspectors" available and I'm pretty sure it is the buyers duty to get one.

Whether or not this is a problem may depend on any actual warranties made to the buyer.

Keep in mind the truck might still have value even though it is not working. What is the price of repair of the broken part?

Thanks blankall. The price of repair on the part is $1000 and the sale price was $600.

So what should I tell my brother to tell this guy?

I think this guys is full of it and doesnt know what he's talking about. He told my brother that if he doesnt get 1/2 back that my brother "will hear from his lawyer" and "we'll see you in small claims court". A contradiction in itself.

[onetwo_threefour]

Okay, first off you are getting some 'free' legal advice, and you may get what you pay for.

I've had a case or two like this. Only, in one case it was a truck with a drilling rig attached and my guy was getting sued for 25K rather than $300.

Technically, the principle of "buyer beware" does apply, unless the Buyer can establish to the court's satisfaction that your brother made relevant warranties or representations as to the quality of the vehicle, or the Court implies a warranty of 'fitness for purpose.' In the case my client lost, the buyer and his wif swore in court that my guy said a bunch of stuff about how great the rig was, and even though I caught them in a couple of lies and their overall testimony had a few holes in it, the judge ended up believing them and my guy lost.

My biggest warning would be that regardless of what the law says, sometimes small claims is a real crapshoot depending on the judge you get, and how you come across as a witness. Obviously the biggest problem your brother has is that the belt went shortly after the truck was sold. If the buyers can get a mechanic to get up and say that there would have been signs that your brother would have seen, the judge may decide your brother is crooked even if the law isn't really against him. That's what happened in the case I had. On the flip side, most lawyers would tell someone trying to sue for $300 in small claims that they're wasting their time. The filing fee alone is $100, and a lot of time and effort has to be invested for an uncertain outcome.

By the way, a small claims battle can involve lawyers, it's just not worth it usually, so it's not a contradiction in terms really. As far as the truck goes, I think your brother's maximum liability is likely the cost of the truck to the purchaser, rather than the repair cost if the repair cost is higher. Otherwise your brother ends up paying the guy the $400 to take his truck.

[The Fonz]

I'd say that if you are buying a truck for $600, it's obviously not going to be the most reliable of vehicles. If the buyer thinks there should've been warranty they're dreaming.

If the person had paid more for the truck, it would be a nice gesture to pay for 1/2 of the repair. But your bro basically gave the truck away, he shouldn't be held responsible for any problems that may occur.

BTW, I think the repair costs around $500

[The Fonz]

Ok, I just saw your repair price. Looks like I was way off when I said $500

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by onetwo_threefour

Okay, first off you are getting some 'free' legal advice, and you may get what you pay for.

I've had a case or two like this. Only, in one case it was a truck with a drilling rig attached and my guy was getting sued for 25K rather than $300.

Technically, the principle of "buyer beware" does apply, unless the Buyer can establish to the court's satisfaction that your brother made relevant warranties or representations as to the quality of the vehicle, or the Court implies a warranty of 'fitness for purpose.' In the case my client lost, the buyer and his wif swore in court that my guy said a bunch of stuff about how great the rig was, and even though I caught them in a couple of lies and their overall testimony had a few holes in it, the judge ended up believing them and my guy lost.

My biggest warning would be that regardless of what the law says, sometimes small claims is a real crapshoot depending on the judge you get, and how you come across as a witness. Obviously the biggest problem your brother has is that the belt went shortly after the truck was sold. If the buyers can get a mechanic to get up and say that there would have been signs that your brother would have seen, the judge may decide your brother is crooked even if the law isn't really against him. That's what happened in the case I had. On the flip side, most lawyers would tell someone trying to sue for $300 in small claims that they're wasting their time. The filing fee alone is $100, and a lot of time and effort has to be invested for an uncertain outcome.

By the way, a small claims battle can involve lawyers, it's just not worth it usually, so it's not a contradiction in terms really. As far as the truck goes, I think your brother's maximum liability is likely the cost of the truck to the purchaser, rather than the repair cost if the repair cost is higher. Otherwise your brother ends up paying the guy the $400 to take his truck.

Ini your lawyerly opinion is this case high-profile enough that a lawyer might be willing to work for free to get the publicity?

I can't believe someone would actually go through with contacting a lawyer and arranging all this for what will amount to a payout, if victorious, of 200 bucks (after the filing fee).

Sounds like he's trying to threaten your brother and come across as some sort of big-shot with his lawyer waiting on the other line to tell him his next move.

The fact that he just bought a 600 dollar pickup truck leads me to believe he's not a big-shot and "his lawyer" is the first guy he'll find in the phonebook willing to get involved in something so small.

[onetwo_threefour]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Ini your lawyerly opinion is this case high-profile enough that a lawyer might be willing to work for free to get the publicity?

I can't believe someone would actually go through with contacting a lawyer and arranging all this for what will amount to a payout, if victorious, of 200 bucks (after the filing fee).

Sounds like he's trying to threaten your brother and come across as some sort of big-shot with his lawyer waiting on the other line to tell him his next move.

The fact that he just bought a 600 dollar pickup truck leads me to believe he's not a big-shot and "his lawyer" is the first guy he'll find in the phonebook willing to get involved in something so small.

Yeah, I don't don't know if the rolleyes are directed at me, but that's my point. I'd probably tell the guy what I said above and if he wants to spend a couple of grand, minimum to try to sue for $600, he's welcome to have at 'er. My point is that, from a liability standpoint, the brother may have a couple of things to think about. (witnesses, expert opinions, credibility of his position) From a practical standpoint, someone who'll sue for anything less than about 5K is crazy in my view (with very limited exceptions relating to business owners who can't let people walk all over them). A lawyer might take the case, as long as you'd give him a big enough retainer up front. (That's where the crazy comes in - I'd probably ask the Buyer for a $2000 retainer, most would walk out at that point)

[Clever_Iggy]

Thanks for all the advice fellas. I was confident this was pretty cut and dry, but I wanted a second (and fifth or more) opinion.

I think this guy is just chapped and is trying to sound big by tossing out "my lawyer". I told my brother that if he felt bad, toss the guy some money, but I wouldnt. My brother said this guy was a jack-*** on the phone, threatened him, etc... no he's just going to tell him to do his worst and hope this clown doesnt have a screw loose.

[The Fonz]

Your bro should have used the "my lawyer" line right back.

"My lawyer said I've got nothing to worry about"

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

Your bro should have used the "my lawyer" line right back.

"My lawyer said I've got nothing to worry about"

Ya. Haha. I told him to say something along those lines - "My brother is a lawyer" which has about as much relevance in a $600 claim as his "my lawyer will contact you" does.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by onetwo_threefour

Yeah, I don't don't know if the rolleyes are directed at me, but that's my point.

No no no, the eyes are rolling at this whole petty scenario.

Damn emoticons, I never get them right.

[nickerjones]

Well if its anything like missouri small claims, there has to be a minimum monetary damage..... I believe its 1000 bucks

[onetwo_threefour]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

No no no, the eyes are rolling at this whole petty scenario.

Damn emoticons, I never get them right.

No worries, I've been in the biz for eight years, I've got thick skin.




Referring to the earlier post, believe it or not, in a small case like this, saying that you have a family member who is a lawyer is actually a pretty good threat in many cases. That way the guy figures that he's gonna have to pay for every second of his lawyer's time while you've got a free ride. I've seen this tactic work to scare off silly litigation once or twice. It makes people evaluate the cost/benefit ratios a little more carefully.

[DuffMan]

that's hilarious. suing someone on a $600 vehicle purchase. I don't think I could stop laughing long enough to tell the guy to f_off.

[habernac]

I sold a car for $500 about 15 years ago. The guy drove it like an idiot and blew the engine within a week. I was threatened with the same crapola. I laughed and said bring it on. And enver heard from him again. He's posturing and hoping your brother gets nervous and gives him some money.

[ken0042]

It's been a dozen years since I dealt with Small Claims Court, but from what I recall from back then; and most of this came from "my lawyer." (I called up a lawyer with the same last name as me, he gave me about 1/2 an hour of his time for free to help me out.)

- The cost of submitting a claim isn't much; it was $25 then so I can't see it being much more now. Maybe $50 at most.
- The thing is he can't just take your bro to court. Before he can file, he has to provide proof that he gave him a demand letter. And it has to be registered; or delivered in person with a witness. It must outline what he wants, and how long your brother has to respond. I think he has to give 2 weeks.
- If he wants to use a lawyer; he can with small claims. However he cannot recover any of his legal fees, so he would be foolish to use a lawyer.

Bottom line is the truck sold for $600, salvage its worth about $150, so he would be suing for $450. I can't see him using a lawyer, and I can't see him going through the bother of suing.

And for those of you lurking, be sure to write on your bills of sale "as is, where is." The law implies that condition, but once it is on the contract; it is a condition of sale.

[fredr123]

ken0042 showing his age Filing fee is $100 for a claim up to $10,000. Then it's $200 for claims over $10,000 up to the limit of $25,000.

Sending out a demand letter is the proper thing to do. However, a small claims court isn't going to prevent Joe Blow acting on his own from commencing a claim without one. What ken0042 seems to be describing to a tee is the Civil Claim that is filed and served in order to commence the claim.

There is discretion for the small claims court to award costs. I had a file just the other day where the successful plaintiff had a lawyer at one point but dropped him later. He was given $300 for his costs. I'm certain he spent way more than that on the lawyer but the $300 was tagged by the judge for those costs anyways.

There is no minimum amount to sue for. The smallest amount one of my clients has been sued for is $1100. Lawyers on the other side and everything.