Racism? In Canada? Never!

[Cain]

Racism is alive and well everywhere...the survey is not surprising. Although I do agree that there is a lot of racism against the "white majority" as well...

My girlfriend was critiscized heavily by one of my former friends parents, when they thought that she and my former friend were close to going out or having a significant relationship. The main deal breaker for them was that she was white, and they were asian. The guy has since found another girl, who is asian and they are all hunky dory with it. You wouldn't imagine some of the harsh things they critiscized her for, and on the basis of her color.

Every race is racist, its just the minorities that get a bit of leeway and overlooked for it.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Mar 22 2005, 10:13 AM
He is? Other races? I assume this is meant to imply that white North Americans are more tolerant than non-white North Americans (first generation or otherwise)? Or non-white non-North Americans? What about the fact that this is many white person's 'home country'.

Not quite sure what you're getting at here in your first two bits here. What I mean to imply was that typically people immigrating to Canada are moving from homogenous black/white/yellow/brown countries and it's the embedded culture "back home" to exclude others. Hence why it shows up in the 1st generation but dissipates (hopefully) by the 2nd.

[Agamemnon]

Not quite sure what you're getting at here in your first two bits here. What I mean to imply was that typically people immigrating to Canada are moving from homogenous black/white/yellow/brown countries and it's the embedded culture "back home" to exclude others. Hence why it shows up in the 1st generation but dissipates (hopefully) by the 2nd.

Ok, here's what I'm getting at.

typically people immigrating to Canada are moving from homogenous black/white/yellow/brown countries and it's the embedded culture "back home" to exclude others

Where is the basis for this? There are _plenty_ of rural Canadians who would cringe at the thought of their son/daughter marrying a non-white person. I think you may be painting whole nations/people with a gigantic (and false) brush. To say that generally, 'black/white/yellow/brown countries' are more intolerant of inter-racial marriage is going to require some hefty proof. I hear you in that this may be a prevailing point of view, but I don't think its a correct one. I think we're a product of our environment, and our environment leads you (and me) to think this way, regardless of its basis in truth.

And, honestly, if you moved to Hong Kong or something, I'm sure most of us would be a lot happier if our son/daughter brought home a white-British person as opposed to Chinese. Again, product of our environment, and very unfortunate.

[Cain]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Mar 22 2005, 05:16 PM

And, honestly, if you moved to Hong Kong or something, I'm sure most of us would be a lot happier if our son/daughter brought home a white-British person as opposed to Chinese. Again, product of our environment, and very unfortunate.

I really don't agree with this statement. I do think that we are generally more tolerant for this sort of thing. I also think that the majority of minorities (haha) that are not, are primarily first generation, or recently removed from that. The others that have been here for a longer time tend not to care as much.

I have no proof of this, but you have no proof for yours either. Its pretty much solely based in opinion and perception.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Cain+Mar 22 2005, 05:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 22 2005, 05:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Agamemnon@Mar 22 2005, 05:16 PM

And, honestly, if you moved to Hong Kong or something, I'm sure most of us would be a lot happier if our son/daughter brought home a white-British person as opposed to Chinese. Again, product of our environment, and very unfortunate.

I really don't agree with this statement. I do think that we are generally more tolerant for this sort of thing. I also think that the majority of minorities (haha) that are not, are primarily first generation, or recently removed from that. The others that have been here for a longer time tend not to care as much.

I have no proof of this, but you have no proof for yours either. Its pretty much solely based in opinion and perception.[/b][/quote]
Well, if one of us moved to Hong Kong, would we not be 'first generation' in a strange place? I guess if you can honestly (completely) say that white/black/chinese, it doesn't matter what your son/daughter brings home, then bravo to you.

It may be that we can come together on this issue by redefining who we're talking about. I'd suggest that urban, educated people from a variety of countries would act and are tolerant in a way similar to 'us'. I think its the rural/backwater type places, which, coincidentally, aren't usually inhabited by whites, are more likely to be intolerant.

I guess I'd suggest that a white farmer here is probably as racially intolerant as you're saying an Asian/Black/whatever farmer would be elsewhere.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally posted by Cain+Mar 22 2005, 10:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 22 2005, 10:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agamemnon@Mar 22 2005, 05:16 PM

And, honestly, if you moved to Hong Kong or something, I'm sure most of us would be a lot happier if our son/daughter brought home a white-British person as opposed to Chinese. Again, product of our environment, and very unfortunate.

I really don't agree with this statement. I do think that we are generally more tolerant for this sort of thing. I also think that the majority of minorities (haha) that are not, are primarily first generation, or recently removed from that. The others that have been here for a longer time tend not to care as much.

I have no proof of this, but you have no proof for yours either. Its pretty much solely based in opinion and perception. [/b][/quote]
I'd suggest there's at least as much intolerance for bringing home a garbage man or hair stylist, or an overweight person, or a smoker, or any number of other things as their is for race.

There's likely way more intolerance for bringin home a different religion.

[octothorp]

Originally posted by I-Hate-Hulse@Mar 21 2005, 10:47 PM

It would also be interesting to see these by urban / rural lines. Oyen, Alberta would be certain to have a different reaction as to say, the Kensington district of Calgary.

I think your question about rural/urban is interesting, but the results wouldn't necessarily be what you would think.

I grew up on a farm, near a small community of about 400, in eastern alberta. I can remember a lot of homophobic things being said when I was growing up--in school, in church, in the local restaurant. It was pretty offensive. And then a gay couple moved to an acreage about ten years ago. And these weren't subtly-gay guys, either. They raised exotic birds, and were pretty much the perfect stereo-type of gayness. But the funny thing is that they were almost universally accepted by the community. They would participate in community events, they would be sought out for their expertise in horticulture with planning local green-spaces (not just a stereotype, the one guy was an experienced horticulturalist), and they would kick ass at the local baking competitions (the other guy was a professional baker). They would be invited out for coffee. They would help with the local theatre. I have since heard an old guy say something harsh about homosexuality in the local coffeeshop, and consequently be scolded by about a half-dozen others.

There are a lot of people in this country who probably say some pretty racist things about people they've never met, but will welcome those people and give them a fair chance, and would never intentionally offend them. Are these people racist? Well, yes. But it's a racism of ignorance rather than a racism of hate--in other words, a racism that can be corrected simply by exposing and educating these people. Hate-racism is the opposite, where no amount of exposure will correct the misconceptions.

[Eagle Eye]

Originally posted by Bend it like Bourgeois@Mar 22 2005, 10:29 AM

I'd suggest there's at least as much intolerance for bringing home a garbage man or hair stylist, or an overweight person, or a smoker, or any number of other things as their is for race.

I think that you hit the nail on the head with that statement

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Bend it like Bourgeois+Mar 22 2005, 05:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bend it like Bourgeois @ Mar 22 2005, 05:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

I really don't agree with this statement. I do think that we are generally more tolerant for this sort of thing. I also think that the majority of minorities (haha) that are not, are primarily first generation, or recently removed from that. The others that have been here for a longer time tend not to care as much.

I have no proof of this, but you have no proof for yours either. Its pretty much solely based in opinion and perception.

I'd suggest there's at least as much intolerance for bringing home a garbage man or hair stylist, or an overweight person, or a smoker, or any number of other things as their is for race.

There's likely way more intolerance for bringin home a different religion.[/b][/quote]
Maybe. But then we're talking about class distinctions as opposed to racial ones, which is really what this thread is about.

If we're talking about intolerance in general, then I suppose we could say that people are generally more accepting of the familiar, and rejecting of the 'foreign'. Not too many surprises there.

[evman150]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+Mar 22 2005, 07:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon @ Mar 22 2005, 07:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-evman150@Mar 22 2005, 08:20 AM
Obviously the candy does not say "n____ babies" on the box. It's just what I know them as. I don't feel something like that makes me racist. It's not like obscure candy references come up in everyday life. I'm just informing you that the term is not antiquated as you seem to imply by your reference to a 63 year old woman using it.

I know them as that too, but I'd never disgrace myself by actually calling them that. Ever. Even by myself. Using vocabulary like that propagates hate, regardless of how innocent you seem to think it is. Thinking Black people or Jews were less human than Whites used to be what people just 'know them as', but that sure doesn't make it close to right.

I'm just informing you that the term is not antiquated as you seem to imply by your reference to a 63 year old woman using it.

The term is thouroughly antiquated, and if you ever hear anyone say it who's under the age of 50, you're looking a racist smack in the eye. It may be that that racism is a result of their upbringing, fair enough, but its still completely wrong.

I find people of other races unattractive and that makes me racist. I really do not understand this one. I cannot help who I am attraceted to. It's just my nature. And I don't think it's possible to be inherently (biologically) racist. If it is, then I guess you can call me biologically racist.

I'd suggest you're right, its probably not possible to be inherently biologically racist. This means that you prefer your own race for other reasons, most likely as a result of your upbringing and environment. If you'd been brought up in a completely multi-racial society, with no race barriers, you'd probably be attracted to every kind of skin colour under the rainbow. It just so happens that you apparently didn't grow up in anything close to this type of environment.

And concerning slavery in Canada, I looked it up and found zilch. If you have some links which support your thoughts please post them.

How hard did you search? Type 'slavery in Canada' in Google and take a look at the first hit. There appears to be some evidence that there indeed were slaves in Canada, under both the French and English. This is the first hit, I'm sure there are others,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Canada
[/b][/quote]
I said slavery in the Dominion of Canada. Who cares what happened three centuries+ ago with the French and English settlers.

And I have no problem with inter-racial relationships/marriage.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by evman150@Mar 22 2005, 06:14 PM
I said slavery in the Dominion of Canada. Who cares what happened three centuries+ ago with the French and English settlers.

And I have no problem with inter-racial relationships/marriage.

Pure semantics. If you'd like to get off on this technicality, you're welcome to it.

The suggestion that 'slavery did not take place in Canada' is, in the end, false. English and French settlers had slaves, and they were the precursor population to Canadians. You can argue the opposite till you're blue in the face, but this only works with legal semantics, not reality.

[Crazy Flamer]

Originally posted by Clarkey@Mar 22 2005, 05:25 AM

Should polygamist's be given equal rights to marry?

I personally am at the point of not really caring about gay marriage because I am able to ignore it without it affecting me too much. However, if gays are allowed I think polygamists should be too, based on that precedent.

I

Sorry to say, but I think your logic in regards to gay marriiage and polygamists being allowed to marry is flawed. When talking about gay marriage, we are still talking about TWO people in a matrimonial union. Be they two women, two men or simply a man and a woman, its only two people. With plygamy, you are talking about having multiple mariage partners, a completely different sack of poatoes. I fail to see how giving gays the right to marry should lead to polygamists being allowed to marry.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by Clarkey@Mar 22 2005, 05:25 AM
Should polygamist's be given equal rights to marry?

I personally am at the point of not really caring about gay marriage because I am able to ignore it without it affecting me too much. However, if gays are allowed I think polygamists should be too, based on that precedent.

I think you'll have to explain that logic to us all. Looks like I'm not the only one who thinks your reasoning is flawed.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally posted by evman150@Mar 22 2005, 11:14 AM

I said slavery in the Dominion of Canada. Who cares what happened three centuries+ ago with the French and English settlers.

And I have no problem with inter-racial relationships/marriage.

I thought you were a physics based major, you should know that 1810 is less than 200 years ago, not this 3+ centuries that you try and pull off. It was still Canada where this took place, whether it was named The Dominion Canada or whether it was named something else.

Using that same logic who cares what happened in the United States when it came to slavery, because well it happened a long time ago.... actually that is the one thing I am envious of the united states of when it comes to slavery. Not that they had slaves, but rather that everyone in their right mind knows what happened, and agrees that it did happen. Canada on the other handis very different as well I consider you to be a very smart fellow, and when even you don't know I question whether the general population has any idea. There is something very wrong with that thinking. Not a word was spoken in the high schools or anything like that on the subject... yet it did happen. Canada as the allways slave free nation is a lie, and one that I would say 99% of the population buys into.

[Lurch]

Where is the basis for this? There are _plenty_ of rural Canadians who would cringe at the thought of their son/daughter marrying a non-white person. I think you may be painting whole nations/people with a gigantic (and false) brush. To say that generally, 'black/white/yellow/brown countries' are more intolerant of inter-racial marriage is going to require some hefty proof. I hear you in that this may be a prevailing point of view, but I don't think its a correct one. I think we're a product of our environment, and our environment leads you (and me) to think this way, regardless of its basis in truth.

In general, I agree with the gist of what you are saying Agamemnon, but this painting of rural Canada is rather offensive in the same way racism is. You are type casting an entire group of people based on your apparently limited experience with rural folk. Personal anecdote only, but when my very rural extended family and childhood friends (all very white like myself) met my Chinese wife to be, she was treated wonderfully. At our wedding, it was my urbanite friends with graduate degree educations who looked down their noses at my childhood friends who live and work on farms, while the rural people I grew up with had a great time seeing the first traditional Chinese culture they had ever seen. My initial fears about mixing cultures were somewhat founded, though it was not backward rednecks that mixed somewhat poorly, but rather self-described cultured urbanites. To throw out an unfounded statement of my own, it's been my experience that urban culture has some sort of superiority complex with regards to rural culture that is entirely unfounded.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Lurch@Mar 22 2005, 08:34 PM

In general, I agree with the gist of what you are saying Agamemnon, but this painting of rural Canada is rather offensive in the same way racism is. You are type casting an entire group of people based on your apparently limited experience with rural folk. Personal anecdote only, but when my very rural extended family and childhood friends (all very white like myself) met my Chinese wife to be, she was treated wonderfully. At our wedding, it was my urbanite friends with graduate degree educations who looked down their noses at my childhood friends who live and work on farms, while the rural people I grew up with had a great time seeing the first traditional Chinese culture they had ever seen. My initial fears about mixing cultures were somewhat founded, though it was not backward rednecks that mixed somewhat poorly, but rather self-described cultured urbanites. To throw out an unfounded statement of my own, it's been my experience that urban culture has some sort of superiority complex with regards to rural culture that is entirely unfounded.

I don't see how what I'm doing is any different from what you're doing. I'm 'painting' a picture that I think is believable, and you're 'painting' a different one, both pictures assume a whole lot about an entire group of people.

You yourself go on to say;

it's been my experience that urban culture has some sort of superiority complex with regards to rural culture that is entirely unfounded

So clearly I'm not in error in making my assumption, just as you are not in making yours. I suppose these are 'best guesses' anyway. I assume that people in rural parts of most countries are, in general, less 'tolerant' (or probably more likely avoiding the 'foreign') than urban parts of most countries. I'd also assume that you'd see much more interracial marriage in cities simply because of demographics. You don't see all the Asians moving into farms in the Okanagan, they're moving to Western urban centres. Thus, its far more likely to find interracial mixing in places where different races actually exist, in prominent degrees.

I think we're arguing the same point, more or less.

[Lurch]

I don't see how what I'm doing is any different from what you're doing. I'm 'painting' a picture that I think is believable, and you're 'painting' a different one, both pictures assume a whole lot about an entire group of people.

You yourself go on to say;

QUOTE
it's been my experience that urban culture has some sort of superiority complex with regards to rural culture that is entirely unfounded

My comment was meant as tongue in cheek rather than a counterpoint. My intention was generally that you could drop the rural in most of your writing and your point would lose nothing, and would perhaps be stronger in that it would not ring with its own sense of pre-judging a group of people.

On a separate point, my view is that it is not a lack of cross-culture contact that creates racism - how else can you explain that the majority of rural racism is pointed towards Native Canadians. In the urban setting, there is plenty of racism pointed towards Asians, which is completely non-existent in a rural setting, from my experience at any rate.

[suomalainen]

Originally posted by octothorp+Mar 22 2005, 10:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (octothorp @ Mar 22 2005, 10:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-I-Hate-Hulse@Mar 21 2005, 10:47 PM

It would also be interesting to see these by urban / rural lines. Oyen, Alberta would be certain to have a different reaction as to say, the Kensington district of Calgary.

I think your question about rural/urban is interesting, but the results wouldn't necessarily be what you would think.

I grew up on a farm, near a small community of about 400, in eastern alberta. I can remember a lot of homophobic things being said when I was growing up--in school, in church, in the local restaurant. It was pretty offensive. And then a gay couple moved to an acreage about ten years ago. And these weren't subtly-gay guys, either. They raised exotic birds, and were pretty much the perfect stereo-type of gayness. But the funny thing is that they were almost universally accepted by the community. They would participate in community events, they would be sought out for their expertise in horticulture with planning local green-spaces (not just a stereotype, the one guy was an experienced horticulturalist), and they would kick ass at the local baking competitions (the other guy was a professional baker). They would be invited out for coffee. They would help with the local theatre. I have since heard an old guy say something harsh about homosexuality in the local coffeeshop, and consequently be scolded by about a half-dozen others.

There are a lot of people in this country who probably say some pretty racist things about people they've never met, but will welcome those people and give them a fair chance, and would never intentionally offend them. Are these people racist? Well, yes. But it's a racism of ignorance rather than a racism of hate--in other words, a racism that can be corrected simply by exposing and educating these people. Hate-racism is the opposite, where no amount of exposure will correct the misconceptions.[/b][/quote]
Ok I was sorta sent this way by someone over on Oilfans (where I normally post) after letting the board over there know I'm gay.

It's funny, I moved down from Edmonton three+ years ago worried that Okotoks, where I was going to live, was going to be weird and hard for me. Well, I got a job there and just was myself and made friends and went to church (mormon--then i started coming to calgary for church) and really only had one problem--a big one mind you, but still only one--now Okotoks isn't considered rural, but it's been tougher I've found living now in Calgary proper than down there. I still found the town to be more accepting than i could ever have found and am totally glad I spent almost 3 years there, and want to return when I'm totally settled down(like kids and stuff--it's a goal of mine in life).

[BlackRedGold25]

Originally posted by Cain@Mar 22 2005, 04:34 AM
This is a country that is split on giving equal rights to homosexuals...Doesn't surprise me.

No. This is a country that is split on redefining long established words to appease a small but vocal minority.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by BlackRedGold25+Mar 22 2005, 05:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BlackRedGold25 @ Mar 22 2005, 05:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cain@Mar 22 2005, 04:34 AM
This is a country that is split on giving equal rights to homosexuals...Doesn't surprise me.

No. This is a country that is split on redefining long established words to appease a small but vocal minority. [/b][/quote]
No. This is a country split on granting basic human rights and equality to a small but vocal minority.