Free-range Children

[Five-hole]

I'm a private music instructor in two different neighborhoods. One would be considered very upper-crust middle class, and the other a much more standard Calgary middle class suburb. I'd say there's definitely a correlation between the income of the parents and the incredible amount of pressure mounted upon their kids to be good little productive young adults.

I have 10 year-old students with no less than 5 extra-curricular commitments. Some kids are in multiple sports and learning two musical instruments at the same time. Girls are often also in dance or horseback riding. Boys in martial arts and more and more sports.

I have students over the age of ten whose parents come with them and sit in on every lesson. I'm surprised they can get over themselves enough to let their kids go to school and be subjected to that unpredictable authority of the education system. Leave them alone once in a while! Let them learn about other kinds of authority than just you. Jeez.

Holy crap as a kid I was damn lucky that my parents put every spare dollar they could into my two pursuits: music, and hockey. I wasn't very good at hockey and stopped pretty quickly. But my parents shelled out thousands of dollars a year for lessons for over a decade, at a time when my dad was starting a small business and had almost no money whatsoever. It's not a competition to see how many different things your kid can do half-assedly. Learning commitment to a single pursuit and excelling at that is far more useful in your future, adult life than kinda doing martial arts, kinda doing dance, kinda learning the trombone, and kinda playing football and hockey.

Because here's the thing. You can't put your kid in piano lessons for two years and actually make them a significantly better person for it. That is simply way too small a timeframe for something to have a long-term impact on a person's life. For music in particular, for all but the rare, exceptional few it takes probably 3-5 years minimum before any genuine aptitude begins to manifest. For any of you with a bachelor's degree, at what point did you begin to feel like you really understood your subject of study? It wasn't after the first year, was it? And first-year uni is a much more time-consuming, immersive process than once-per-week music lessons.

As much as learning Yankee Doodle you need to learn about things like responsibility, commitment, and the kind of dedication to specific things it takes to become actually above-average at something. And for the love of god, it's also important to let them explore the world and figure things out for themselves. I didn't have fourteen kinds of watchdogs after me on the playground so I didn't dust it and hurt myself. I dusted it and hurt myself and I figured out that jumping onto a moving merry-go-round is a bad idea. I also figured out that it was my fault that I got hurt, not that my babysitter wasn't paying close enough attention to me.

It seems to me like if a kid has any spare time in their day the parents are doing something wrong. They've invented this thing called "play dates". I'm sure some of you have your kids do this. It's like they blackberry other parents and "pencil in" some play time between their kids. WICKED! Man, I know i had my most fun when it was scripted to happen by my parents.

"Ok sally don't be late for your 4:30 play appointment with little jessica! And then don't forget about your violin lesson at 6:00 and dance at 7:30!"

WTF?

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

There was no rides to school or the bus for me growing up.

Nope, we were expected to fist fight all the way to school and all the way home afterwards.

during recess, we were encouraged to load a nerds mouth up with mud and then punch them in the gut.

At lunch we stole lunch money, and ran over small animals with our big wheels.

We were ripped in shape and we could kick the butts of any kids raised nowdays in this namby pamby environment.

Daryl Sutter, is that you?

[Locke]

Free Range Children?

And here I was tying them up in the back yard.

Now I have to build a fence....

[flamesfever]

A great post Five-hole. If it were me you'd have a red square for it.

I can certainly see all the things you bring up in the latest generation of parents. I think a lot of the problem is trying to home in on what it is they really are capable of excelling at. In my experience it's usually the one thing they keep coming back to in the variety of activities they get excited about e.g. playing the guitar, singing etc.

As for what they eventually do as an occupation I used to tell them "Find out what you enjoy doing, do it to the best of your ability, and create a market for your own product". That way, you end up getting paid for something you enjoy doing, usually get an edge on your competitor by doing it better than most, and puts you in a position to find a buyer for your special skills.

[DementedReality]

as a parent, i have a differerent point of view.

1) i dont want my kids walking home from school alone, call me over protective but the one day they dont make it home, i will never forgive myself for being so lazy a to not go and get them. what, for the sake of showing off how independant they are? the fact my wife works at the same school they goto, makes it easy to manage.

2) we sign our kids up for swimming lessons so they learn how to not drown. we sign our kids up for sports so they learn how to be on a team and listen to a coach and get excersize. we make sure they have no more than 2 extra activities at a time and when its hockey season, my son only has 1 as it is a big enough commitment on its own.

3) schools ARE dumbed down. if you have bright kids, do you want them to pulled down or do you give them alternative inputs to keep them interested in learning?

4) my wife stayed home with the kids until they were both full time at school. then she volunteered at the school because she wasnt working and it made sense. she spent enough time at the school that they hired her to work as an EA. some posters here know my family, i dont think anyone could say they arent bright independant and well mannered kids.

its not easy to let go nor is it easy to know when too much is too much. there is no manual nor is there one path that works for all kids. as a parent, every day, every decision can have life altering implications (positive or negative). forgive us if sometimes we are working from the seat of our pants.

[redforever]

Well Demented Reality, from your post, I do not see you in the same light as I see the parents that Five-hole was talking about.

The parents Five-hole sees have their children enlisted in 5+ activities. You say your children are in 2 max, hockey season, your son is in 1 max. I see you as a parent realizing that anymore and your child is over exposed and put in a situation where it is more than they can handle.

Five-hole has parents that stay the whole time during the piano lesson. Are you afraid to drop your son off at his hockey and not stay and watch every practice or every game? I somehow don't think so. I see you as a parent who would like to see your children playing and participating in their various activities while not being afraid to let your child experience those activities on their own as well. There is quite a difference in how you enrol your children in activities and then how you handle the way your children participate in those activities. I think you realize the activity is for your child, not for you.

And I think you have figured out the way to keep your children interested in learning. On the other hand, many parents feel their child is gifted and ordinary public school will never work for their children. There is always a balance. What do you do with gifted or special needs children because there is around 10% - 15% of each that require more than regular schooling usually provides? Is it better for the gifted to provide a program that enriches them and frustrates the rest of the students? Or is it better for the gifted child to experience a regular school setting and then be challenged outside of that setting as well? Or is it better for the gifted child to be in a special setting just for gifted children? Very fine balancing act and as you say, many parents work by the seats of their pants. And it is always hard to determine if your child is indeed gifted or just "ordinary" with special interests. It is ok to have "ordinary" children, parenting does not have to be a competition. I mean, come on, parents are putting their children on play school lists before they are married or before they have children.

I think the parents that Five-hole is alluding to and the article is alluding to are the parents who live through their children and want them to experience everything they never did and it is those children who are over exposed and over programmed. AND those are the children who will face challenges managing their own time as adults.

[DementedReality]

Originally Posted by redforever

Well Demented Reality, from your post, I do not see you in the same light as I see the parents that Five-hole was talking about.

....

fair enough, the comment about kids having to be driven to and from school was the one that hit close to home.

hand up, i admit to not letting my 7 & 9 year old walk to and from school alone. one day, i will, but not yet. i live a 10 minute walk, but for the sake of 10 minutes, my life would be devastated if something were to happen. kids at the size are just not big enough to defend themselves, and its not just predators. how about stray dogs? other kids, say on a bike? and of course cars.

[Antithesis]

At some point, your kids might demand the ability to walk home on their own before you have a chance to make it your decision

I'd never poke fun at anyone for being concerned for their children, but I just always wonder how we made it to adulthood given all the things our parents did which are now considered stupid ...

There really is no more danger to kids these days than there was when I was little 20 years ago ... therefore, based on my experiences at that time, I'd have to conclude that when the time comes, my son will be OK getting to and from school by himself from an early age, though I appreciate it's something you're not comfortable with.

[DementedReality]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

At some point, your kids might demand the ability to walk home on their own before you have a chance to make it your decision

....

you are quite right and at that point in time we will assess how to address it. until that time, why push them to it if it isnt neccesary?

[redforever]

Originally Posted by DementedReality

fair enough, the comment about kids having to be driven to and from school was the one that hit close to home.

hand up, i admit to not letting my 7 & 9 year old walk to and from school alone. one day, i will, but not yet. i live a 10 minute walk, but for the sake of 10 minutes, my life would be devastated if something were to happen. kids at the size are just not big enough to defend themselves, and its not just predators. how about stray dogs? other kids, say on a bike? and of course cars.

Again, I see you as a rational parent taking in the age of your children and the distance to their school and the risk factors involved.

The person who made the comment about parents driving their children to and from school also said that many of those parents lived within one or two blocks of the school. And the question was then posed, why not walk and pick up your child instead of drive?

I think there is a very stated difference between your parenting style and the style of the parents in the article of question.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

I agree with a lot of the stuff in this thread, but at the same time I'm always amazed at how easily people criticize others parenting. Or just criticize parenting in general. Like anyone has any hope of getting it 'right'.

Everyone has an opinion about parenting, as if being parented (or not) at some point qualifies them to be my moral compass.

[wpgflamesfan]

antithesis great post there back on page two. Although I'm still a student I definitely agree with you on most of your points.

One thing that pissed me off when i was in a public school was that kids not only constantly blamed there teachers for there own failures but also had their parents do all the complaining for them. They have no idea how to accept that something was maybe their fault and can't go have a one on one discussion with the teacher about the issue. I'm shocked that parents would actually do this as in my mind unless the situation is very serious they should teach their kids how to work things out with the teacher in an adult matter. What are these kids gonna do when they start working? Call there mommy and daddy up to come complain to their boss when they don't get the promotion they were hopping for?

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Its fluff to a nursing degree and you know it. Its like an engineer taking film studies. Sure, they might like that too, and a degree in it may hold some value, but its has nothing to do with their education and their requirements. I had a lot of fluff in my BA, I liked a lot of it, but it had very little to do with my major, or my second degree.

I'm an Audio Engineer and I had to take film studies. LOL.

So, if I have kids and don't own a TV to bombard me with paranoia, are all the other parents going to turn me into the police for being a poor parent?

[flamesfever]

Antithesis, on the subject of "failing" (or being held back) in school, parents should realize that the decision is not taken lightly. And in the small minority of cases where it is suggested by the teacher, it quite often means the difference between going through school at the bottom of the class instead of in the middle or even higher.

I do think the earlier it's done the better, probably in grades one or two, when the social element is not as important.

As a primary grade teacher, my wife failed a total of 20 children over the length of her career, and she says they all benefited except for one.

I had a childhood friend who failed grade two and in University used to argue with the professors and win. He ended up being one of the foremost electrical engineers in the country.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Antithesis, on the subject of "failing" (or being held back) in school, parents should realize that the decision is not taken lightly. And in the small minority of cases where it is suggested by the teacher, it quite often means the difference between going through school at the bottom of the class instead of in the middle or even higher.

I do think the earlier it's done the better, probably in grades one or two, when the social element is not as important.

As a primary grade teacher, my wife failed a total of 20 children over the length of her career, and she says they all benefited except for one.

I had a childhood friend who failed grade two and in University used to argue with the professors and win. He ended up being one of the foremost electrical engineers in the country.

That is exactly the case. And if that child is then middle or top of their class, they are a much happier child, a much better adjusted child, and a child that is not always struggling with homework and not having the ability to keep up. And that in turn results in children being able to experience success in their lives too.

But with many parents today, they are so worried about the emotional psyche of the child, they think it would be the opposite.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

Its not only that. Its the fear that something might happen between point A and point B. The worry that somebody might abduct your child in the three block walk from school. Sure it has happened and will happen again. But chances are they have a much better chance of getting hit by a car. Allthough I'm sure that is a major source of grief for some parents as well.

The former actually happened to us several years ago. You would not believe the stuff that was printed about us in the paper.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by wpgflamesfan

What are these kids gonna do when they start working? Call there mommy and daddy up to come complain to their boss when they don't get the promotion they were hopping for?

Thanks for the kudos. Regarding this point, you'd be surprised. My stepfather instructs in a so-called 'career program' at SAIT and you'd be surprised how many parents wish to talk to him about stuff like absences, marks, 'issues', etc. We're talking about people who are adults in the literal sense here, and also people trying to impress to end up with a job in their field upon graduation.

flamesfever, I'm with you 100% - you're right - that's what SHOULD happen but it's not what does happen. Every year I'd estimate that as a staff we suggest to 20 parents that their child is 'held back'. Between 10 and 20% agree. For some of them, by the time they get to us, it might not matter a lot (like say, the kids I teach who can't read, or add two numbers together) but for many of them it DOES make sense - they are capable, they just didn't learn what they needed to. It's like there's this perception that I am out to harm someone's child, which couldn't be further from the truth. I understand it's hard to do something that your kids don't want you to, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done ... and they'll make new friends (if not stay with the same current group) ... in fact ... given the situation they are in, it might be better for them to find new friends.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

The former actually happened to us several years ago. You would not believe the stuff that was printed about us in the paper.

Your child was abducted? Good lord...i can't imagine....

I wouldn't know how to begin to cope with that.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

Your child was abducted? Good lord...i can't imagine....

I wouldn't know how to begin to cope with that.

Both of them, believe it or not.

It's a lot easier to cope with it when you know they are ok before you know they were abducted.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Both of them, believe it or not.

It's a lot easier to cope with it when you know they are ok before you know they were abducted.

Man...glad to hear they were ok, but still that must have been brutal.

I'm sure everyone had an opinion on it. As i mentioned earlier - parenting is heaven for the judgemental. People with no understanding of you (meaning all parents) your kids, circumstance, or anything will happily judge what you do as a parent.